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The Failed Historian Print E-mail
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Written by Âàëåðèé Ïîòàïîâ   
Wednesday, 29 March 2000

The Failed Historian


"A historian’s chief concern is fact;
an agitator’s – intonation."

V. Rezun, “The Last Republic”.

Translator’s note

The following article concerns the works of Vladimir Rezun, a former Soviet intelligence officer who had defected to the West in 1978. Beginning in the early 1990s, Rezun, working under a pseudonym of Viktor Suvorov, published a number of controversial books on Stalin and the Soviet Union in World War II. The most well known of these include “Ledokol” (“Icebreaker”), “Den’ M” (“Day M”) and “Poslednjaja Respublika” (“The Last Republic”), and are focused primarily on demonstrating that Stalin’s intention was to launch a massive assault on Germany in the Summer of 1941, and that the German invasion had by chance pre-empted the Soviet one by roughly two weeks. Rezun’s books have fuelled heated debates among both professional and amateur historians, and have been the subject of several comprehensive rebuttal articles and books, nearly all of them in Russian. While no longer considered required reading for anyone interested in the Great Patriotic War, Rezun’s works remain a smouldering source of controversy even to this day, particularly in the on-line community.

Unfortunately, although Rezun’s books have been translated into dozens of languages, to our knowledge the U.S. editions have been out of print for a number of years. We have thus been forced to translate anew any extracts from Rezun’s books used in the following article, and expect there to be at least some minor variations from the published English translations. In addition, all page number and chapter citations refer to the original Russian-language editions.

Author’s Foreword

I would like to begin by stressing that this article was meant as a general survey of Rezun’s failings as a historian, and I by no means seek to claim sole authorship of all the included critiques. Any external sources used are cited in the text itself, and also in the bibliography section at the end of the piece. The article itself was written back in the year 2000, and numerous works demonstrating the true “value” of Rezun’s writings have been published since. So many, in fact, that there is now little need to continue arguing the merits of Rezun’s thesis; in fact, to publicly support Rezun’s theories has become a sign of ignorance. Nevertheless, I have decided to retain the article on The Russian Battlefield website, primarily to express the administrators’ collected view of Rezun’s works. Of course, there are still a few lone dinosaurs out there that, with incredible stubbornness, continue to try and defend Rezun’s thesis. I believe their existence to be quite normal and, unfortunately, unavoidable. The Russian term for this personality type can be loosely translated as “stuck” – in essence, these people generally suffer from a form of mental indolence, but once they seize upon an idea it is utterly impossible to change their minds. Regardless of what evidence you present to them, they will continue to insist that the Earth is flat, that Rezun is, in the main, correct, and so forth. Thus, this article’s main focus will not be to debate Rezun’s few remaining adherents over what is already more or less a settled issue.




As once or twice I have been accused of falsifying or distorting Rezun’s words, I am providing images of book covers of my source material. While a given passage may somewhat vary across different editions, especially if translated into a foreign language, the overall meaning should remain largely unchanged.

As I’ve already mentioned, Rezun’s books have prompted a slew of publications, both printed and on-line. Many fault him for utilizing clearly erroneous vehicle and equipment specifications. However, the thrust of the matter is not that Rezun is arriving at flawed conclusions solely due to flawed inputs. Had he truly been mistaken, or were he merely a dilettante, I would not have taken the time to write this article. But, having read and reread “Icebreaker”, “Day M” and “The Last Republic”, I have come to a firm conclusion that Rezun lies, and very deliberately. He is not a dilettante, but rather a “falsifier”.

Rezun’s books are actually a very easy and interesting read. He is a fine writer and publicist, and knows a good deal about human psychology. It is all too easy to believe a man who can effortlessly explain very complex issues. Of course, serious historical works tend to include numerous questions that have no simple black-and-white answers. Not so Rezun’s books. His writing betrays no hesitation, not a hint of doubt. He writes with tremendous self-assuredness, taking a given fact and effortlessly revealing its “true” meaning to the reader. Or, at least, knowingly hinting at it – as in, “official explanations aside, you and I both understand the real significance of this…” The reader is thus flattered in being made a member of some exclusive club privy to esoteric knowledge – and this when the alternative, mostly the tired and stale Soviet propaganda, which had become incredibly vulgar, shameless and tiresome during the Brezhnev period. Significantly, Rezun’s arguments are aimed directly at Soviet ideologues, no specific persons, of course, but rather some murky archetype such as “the Kremlin historians”, “the Kremlin-KGB propagandists”, “the Kremlin-Lubyanka historians”, etc. The convenience of this approach cannot be overstated, as this saves Rezun from having to refute specific authors or published works; he is, in effect, free to invent whatever nonsense he chooses, and then to spectacularly disprove it before the enthralled reader. At the same time, he can freely take advantage of the old adage that “if you are not with us, you are against us”, or in his case, “if you are against the Soviet propagandists you must be for Rezun”. Given all this, it is hardly surprising that his books had managed to attain such a prominent role in World War 2 historiography as they did for a time.

Supporters of Rezun’s thesis often fall back on more or less the same arguments. Most frequently, they try to find the tiniest imperfection in the opposition’s case. It’s the schoolyard “oh yeah?” mode of argument. [E.g. two plus two isn’t five - oh yeah, well you’re ugly!] Upon discovering even the most insignificant error, they proceed to make mountains out of molehills and proclaim that this single mistake or omission is of such supreme importance that none of the other ten thousand (correct) arguments made by the same author are worth considering. And thus, Rezun’s thesis is found to be “in the main” correct. Take, for instance, a book published towards the end of 2004 by A. Isaiev called “Anti-Suvorov: the big lie of the little man”. Every now and again on various Internet forums you can find posts along the lines of “oh yeah? Well Isaev makes plenty of mistakes himself!” Of course, these truth-seekers typically prefer not to provide any specific examples of Isaev’s mistakes, in part as they themselves are likely to base their views purely on hearsay. [Of course, applying the same “hearsay” logic to Rezun’s books implies that they can safely be tossed in the trash after reading just the first page.]

As I have been accused on several occasions of falsifying or distorting Rezun’s words to make my arguments, I am going as far as posting images of the actual book covers of my source material. The publisher information for my editions is as follows:

Viktor Suvorov, “Icebreaker; Day M,” Moscow, AST, 1996 ISBN 5-88196-303-2
Viktor Suvorov, “The Last Republic,” Moscow, AST, 1996 ISBN 5-88196-559-0

At the dawn of Perestroika, when I was still very young, I chanced upon a “samizdat” [unofficially or illegally published issue – Transl.] copy of “Icebreaker”. I was only 16 years old, and had never read anything like it – and Rezun was, as ever, quite persuasive. I believed him. I even believed that I was privy to some secret new Knowledge, that I have had an epiphany. Of course, later on as I read more and more books on the Great Patriotic War, including those cited by Rezun himself, I was incredibly surprised to discover that they – especially the books apparently used to build Rezun’s arguments – state something entirely different!

Rezun’s entire argument is based on circumstantial evidence. Take any criminal court of any civilized nation, and you will learn that circumstantial evidence is almost never sufficient to obtain a conviction. Rezun further weakens his thesis by wildly distorting the circumstantial evidence itself, as well as by ignoring any and all contrary facts. His errors of fact have been caught and catalogued numerous times, yet still his supporters insist that “well, all right, he might miss a few technical details, but in the main he is still right!” Naturally, this means that any of Rezun’s known errors must not be particularly meaningful or consequential, and that the anti-Rezun “fools” are missing the main thrust of his analytical efforts. I.e. – “in the main”, he is still right. Of course, none of the “Rezunists” seem to clearly grasp what this “in the main” really is, and why Rezun devotes entire volumes to “details” while his main thesis remains carefully veiled, never in full view, and never leaving itself open to a comprehensive rebuttal. I personally believe that this “main thrust” of Rezun’s work is the amalgamation of all his “details”; to disprove a given whole, it is sufficient to disprove some or all of its constituent parts. And these “parts” for Rezun are these very “details”, the BT tanks with underwater movement capabilities, the thousands of TB-7 heavy bombers, Stalin’s secret plans for a European offensive, all the “details” that have already been disproved time and again from all imaginable angles.

The Rezunists’ primary beliefs can be summarized as follows – before the Great Patriotic War, the USSR was not preparing for a defensive war, but rather for an offensive into Germany. One can begin to see the fallacy of this argument simply in the fact that the USSR’s official histories did not disavow the development of offensive plans prior to the war. In fact, the USSR, the United States and Great Britain all had developed defensive plans that entailed offensive actions. Even Finland, typically viewed as a peaceful and generally harmless nation, developed its defensive plan in an entirely offensive fashion – the vaunted Mannerheim Line was intended to cover the Finnish Army’s flank (rather than “defend the nation from the Bolshevist threat”, as Rezun puts it) while it advanced into Soviet territory towards Murmansk, Petrozavodsk, etc. Even Poland, World War 2’s first victim, had envisioned its defence as one involving offensive operations in East Prussia.

Purely defensive plans are the province of small states that harbour no illusions regarding their ability to withstand an attack from a powerful enemy; rather, they hope to stall this enemy long enough for an equally powerful benefactor to intervene on their behalf. Rezun’s primary thesis, however, reads as follows: the USSR was the primary initiator of World War 2 because it was preparing to carry out unprovoked aggression against European states in 1941. And this, in turn, serves as the sole reason for the German attack on the USSR. This is the thesis that Rezun dedicated three entire volumes to establishing.

In this article, I will refrain from addressing every single aspect of Rezun’s arguments, or in fact every single chapter of his books. Literally every page of his works is littered with lies and distortions of some sort, and I am not about to dedicate my life to refuting Rezun’s thesis. My intent is merely to demonstrate his methods of falsification by examining those statements that I view as being crucial to his overall argument, and that Rezun himself habitually refers to as indisputable facts.


1. Rezun on the Soviet armored forces

Let us begin with, perhaps, one of Rezun’s most important statements – his estimate of the number of tanks in service with the Red Army at the start of the Great Patriotic War [referred to simply as “the war” elsewhere in this article – Transl.]. Specifically:

"As of June 21, 1941, Stalin has 24,000 tanks at his disposal.
<...>
...as of June 22, 1941, Hitler had deployed a total of 3,350 tanks on the Eastern Front. The Wehrmacht’s overall tank strength was slightly higher, however the excess was deployed on other fronts and as such should not be counted."
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “What tanks did Hitler have?”, pp. 269-270)

Technically the Red Army had slightly fewer tanks than the figure mentioned by Rezun – 23,106, to be exact (Military History Journal No.11, 1993, the article can be found here), but let’s not split hairs. The really interesting part of Rezun’s above statement is this: why does Rezun’s analysis compare the number of tanks deployed on the Eastern Front to the Red Army’s entire tank pool? And by “entire”, I mean inclusive of broken-down machines as well as of tanks deployed not on the Western borders but, say, in the Soviet Far East.

The Military History Journal provides detailed statistics on Soviet armor just prior to the war. As it happens, the Western Defence Districts had only 12,782 tanks, rather than Rezun’s 24,000, and 2,242 of those tanks were listed as broken down and “in need of repairs”. As an aside, in the first version of this article, written nearly five years ago, I made an error in stating that most of the remaining, active tanks had actually been not combat-ready. I would readily like to correct myself in this regard – the data shows that the remaining 10,540 tanks were listed at June 1, 1941 as combat-ready. The total was comprised of 8,383 tanks in active service, including some in need of minor repairs, as well as of 2,157 brand new machines with zero mileage. Notably, these figures are for all five Western Defence Districts, although only three of them – the Baltic Defence District, Western Special Defence District and Kiev Special Defence District – actually covered the Western borders. Clearly, the number of tanks deployed in those three districts is even lower, which means Rezun has more than doubled the number of Soviet tanks involved in the summer battles of 1941, especially in the border regions. At the same time, Rezun showed considerably greater discretion in estimating the number of German tanks facing Russia, only counting those machines actually deployed on the Eastern Front. Quite a curious double standard, isn’t it.

There is also the question of those Red Army tanks that were listed as active but in need of minor repairs. At this juncture it is nearly impossible to determine exactly what these “minor repairs” were; perhaps the tank’s engine stalled while in neutral gear, or the gun sight was damaged. A tank is a very complex machine in need of frequent maintenance. Of course, not every damaged part will render a tank useless in battle, but some breakages will, even if they can be fixed with relative ease. For instance, a damaged gun sight will significantly reduce a tank’s combat capability, even though all one has to do to alleviate the problem is install a spare. Obviously I won’t go so far as to claim that all eight thousand odd tanks had broken gun sights, but the example of a relatively minor problem substantially reducing the combat effectiveness of an otherwise operational vehicle is telling. The bottom line is that while I certainly recognize that the USSR had more tanks than did Germany at the start of the war, Rezun should clearly have been more careful with his estimate. Waving the figure of 24,000 tanks in front of the reader for several chapters as if it were a proven and indisputable fact looks decidedly like a deliberate attempt to mislead.

"In 1941, the newest tanks could be distinguished by five specific design elements:
- A powerful long-barrelled main gun of at least 76mm in calibre;
- Armor capable of withstanding direct hits from armor-piercing ammunition, allowing the machine to operate in an environment populated with enemy anti-tank guns;
- Wide tracks, allowing the tank the freedom to manoeuvre without restrictions in nearly any terrain and all weather conditions;
- A rational assembly: the engine and transmission housed close together;
- A diesel engine: light, economical, and most importantly – difficult to set ablaze."
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “What tanks did Hitler have?”, pp. 279-280)

After reading these criteria, my first thought was that if the T-34 tank were capable of sustained flight, Rezun would have to add a sixth “design element” to that list. How so? Well, it seems to me that every one of these “design elements” has been matched specifically to the performance characteristics of the T-34 and KV tanks. But let us assume for a moment that my suspicions in this regard are incorrect, and take Rezun’s criteria at face value. Every one of his “design elements” prompts, or should prompt, an immediate query as to why that particular design decision is meaningful. Why a 76mm gun? Why must the engine and the tank’s transmission necessarily be “housed close together”? Let’s find out!

1. Why was the 76mm gun selected by Rezun as a criterion? Rezun makes absolutely no effort to provide any explanation for this, which lends credence to my theory that this particular calibre was chosen simply because that was the calibre of the main gun of the T-34 and KV-1 tanks. [Surely had Rezun had any explanation of his own, he would not have failed to trumpet it at every opportunity, given his tendency to vociferously argue even the most trivial of his hypotheses.] Thus, had the T-34 possessed a 57mm or a 85mm gun, Rezun would have undoubtedly used that figure instead of 76mm. In other words, first we find out the answer to the main problem from the back of the textbook, and then we tailor our written solution to suit the answer. Of course, Rezun wrote “at least 76mm”, but this threshold calibre is selected in a completely arbitrary fashion. Moreover, the criterion itself and Rezun’s sacred “76mm” has little to do with reality.

Even in the pre-war years, and certainly by the early period of the war, 76mm calibre guns were considered anything but “powerful” for a new heavy tank. Quite the contrary, they were thought of as relatively weak, which is why designers focused on developing 85mm and even 107mm tank guns. Even after the war’s start, with all its disruptions for the Soviet armaments industry, work on a new heavy tank with a 107mm main gun continued unabated.

There were also plans to rearm the T-34 with a more suitable and forward-looking gun system. The best prospect for “the main tank of the motorized and mechanized formations of the Red Army” was a 57mm calibre gun, not the 76mm weapon. Thus the phrase “a powerful long-barrelled 76mm main gun” is completely incorrect; the engineers envisioned different gun systems, of both medium and heavy calibre, for different perspective tank designs. The war’s start forced a substantial correction in research and development priorities, and many forward-looking projects were abandoned in favor of inferior designs already in production. This is how the 76mm gun had come to dominate the Red Army tank pool: the gun’s advanced production status and a wide range of available ammunition served as very powerful arguments in the Soviet war economy.

2. What about tank armor? Tank armor is also a somewhat more complex issue than Rezun makes it out to be. Certainly, the thicker the armor – the better for the tank, at least if one does not mind the associated negative effects, such as a significant increase in weight. The question is really this: did the German tank models circa 1941 have sufficient armor protection? Given the number lost in action from Soviet gunfire – probably yes. There is no need to cite various German commanders arguing the opposite, as generals always pine for a tank with impermeable armor and an unstoppable main gun. In reality, the Red Army’s main anti-tank asset in 1941 was the 45mm Battalion Gun, which could penetrate only 38mm armor from 500 metres and 50mm armor from 100 metres, and oftentimes even less due to the poor quality of its armor-piercing rounds. By contrast, the majority of German Panzer III and IV tank variants as well as the StuG-III assault guns had a frontal armor of 50mm thickness, in other words quite adequate protection from Soviet antitank gunfire.

The task of destroying Soviet infantry divisions was simplified even further as they weren’t issued all the guns listed in their tables of organization and equipment (TO&E). For example, according to a combat readiness report from the 27th Army on the North-western Front dated July 20, 1941, the most well-equipped division was the 5th Rifle Division, which possessed a grand total of 2 45mm guns and 11 76mm guns. That’s 13 guns of any kind for an entire division! Clearly the German tanks were not in dire need of increased armor protection, as the Russians often hadn’t anything to try and penetrate their armor with! Of course, not all Red Army divisions were so badly off, and some of them even managed to have nearly as many guns as they were supposed by TO&E.

3. What of wide tracks? Speaking strictly with respect to all-terrain manoeuvrability, the key metric should be not the width of the tank’s tracks, but rather specific ground pressure. The German tanks had “narrow” tracks, but so what? Even today both Russian and Western armies field some narrow-tracked AFVs. The BMP and BMD series, for instance, or the post-war PT-76 tank. To base one’s view of a tank’s combat mobility purely on the width of its tracks is technical nonsense. Some may point out, of course, that the BMP and BMD AFVs were post-war designs, and aren’t really “tanks” per se, but that isn’t the point. What I am trying to stress is that instead of “wide tracks”, Rezun should be focused on “specific ground pressure”. Which, in turn, is a metric vital to the performance of any armored fighting vehicle. One can say that this is a trivial detail, that I am splitting hairs, but really, is it possible to believe that this gross technical error is an outlier rather than a symptom?

Of course the low ground pressure of the T-34 and KV tanks was an important asset. But while some German tank models were considerably outmatched in this regard, others were not. In fact, Soviet designers themselves had considered reducing the track width by 100mm to decrease the tanks’ dimensions and thus mass (Soviet of the People’s Commissars of the USSR Declaration No. 1216-502cc, “On the production of T-34 tanks during the year of 1941”). In fact, this document openly suggests that a narrowing of the tracks is an “improvement” if coupled with adding extra armor (and thus increasing the tank’s overall weight), further exacerbating the issue of increased specific ground pressure. Does this perchance mean that Rezun’s one-sided view of the issue could be wrong? That Soviet designers were not afraid to increase our tanks’ average ground pressure? Not that I am implying that Rezun’s deduction is an outright lie in this case, rather a very narrow and one-sided view of the issue, which he did not bother to verify before using it to draw some very far-reaching conclusions.

4.
"The German tank designers committed an unforgivable error: they opted for a rear-mounted engine but a front-mounted transmission. The same mistake was made by British, American and Japanese designers...
<...>
...the Soviet tanks had a rational assembly scheme, while German, American, British and Japanese machines an irrational one."
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “What tanks did Hitler have?”, pp. 275, 279)

What is Rezun saying? Why was this design decision “erroneous”? Let us examine the facts.

For starters, installing the transmission system in the forward portion of the tank does impart certain advantages:
- The tank’s overall length is reduced as its steering and transmission systems are combined. This also allows for a larger crew compartment.
- The turret can be positioned in the centre of the tank, allowing for a more uniform mass distribution. Additionally, a longer main gun may be mounted without the risk of it “sticking in the ground” during cross-country manoeuvres.

On the other hand, a front-mounted gearbox carries with it a number of disadvantages:
- The machine’s height must necessarily be increased, as key parts of the motive system must be routed underneath the crew compartment. This typically has the effect of raising the compartment’s floor by 300-500mm, and the tank’s loader typically needs at least 1.6-1.7 meters in vertical space to operate at normal pace.
- A frontal installation of transmission components restricts the slope of the glacis plate.
- Transmission components become more susceptible to enemy fire. Even a hit that fails to penetrate the glacis plate can knock loose, damage or destroy key parts, potentially immobilizing the tank.
- Housing the gearbox in front of the crew compartment reduces its habitability and can potentially impact crew endurance – the gearbox is a source of considerable noise and heat that is difficult to dissipate.
- Engine and transmission maintenance becomes a significantly more complex task.

In similar vein, a rear-mounted transmission system enjoys the following advantages:
- Absence of transmission axles underneath the crew compartment allows a significant reduction in the height of the tank.
- The glacis plate is free to be installed at a slope equalling or exceeding 60 degrees.
- Installing much of the motive mechanism in the rear of the tank increases the machine’s overall survivability, as component housing is less likely to come under enemy fire.
- Heat dissipation becomes a considerably simpler task, and the tank’s habitability is greatly increased by installing the gearbox in the engine compartment.
- Removable rear armor plating allows for easy maintenance access to the tank’s motive systems.

At the same time, there are a number of drawbacks to a rear-mounted transmission:
- The tank’s length must be increased to accommodate a larger engine housing or else the crew compartment reduced in size.
- A longer machine section also serves to shift the heavy turret and the crew compartment forward, resulting in an uneven weight distribution and a disproportionate stress on the front roadwheels. This, in turn, can lead to frequent breakdowns, in particular under battlefield conditions.
- Moving the turret forward oftentimes leaves no room behind the glacis plate for a driver’s hatch. This forces the tank designers to either position the hatch on the glacis plate itself (as in the T-34 series), reducing the machine’s ability to withstand frontal hits, or else dispensing with the hatch altogether (the JS series), which forces the driver to mount the tank through the turret hatch and reduces his chances of survival if the tank brews up.
- Transmission controls must be extended to the front of the tank, which increases their complexity and reduces overall reliability.

As you can see, neither transmission mounting provides an absolute advantage over its counterpart. Naturally, Rezun dispenses with the above analysis, selects one particular advantage and proceeds to draw a triumphant conclusion about the “well-built” Soviet and “poorly-designed” German tanks. This is yet another illustration of Rezun’s technical ignorance; I hope that the above analysis makes this fact and the true “value” of the author’s pontifications on “good” and “bad” tank designs self-evident.

In fact, it probably pays to briefly examine the particular disadvantages of a rear-mounted transmission based on the experience of the most common Soviet tank of the war – the T-34. The rear-mounted gearbox, a heritage of the outdated Christie tanks, necessitated a substantial reduction in the size of the crew compartment to avoid increasing the tank’s overall length. The design change also dictated a forward mounting of the turret, creating a considerable weight imbalance. This became the primary restriction on increasing the thickness of the T-34 and T-34-85’s frontal armor from the 45mm it was in 1940, despite the fact that Soviet designers had performed numerous tests confirming that “the T-34 tank’s frontal armor can be defeated by German anti-tank guns at all combat distances” as early as 1942. As mentioned above, shifting the turret forward forced the driver hatch to be mounted on the glacis plate, dramatically weakening it and creating an especially vulnerable spot on the tank’s front armor. A direct hit on this spot from even a 50mm anti-tank round collapsed the hatch killing the driver instantly and immobilizing the tank itself. Furthermore, for the same reason the machine-gunner hatch had to be discarded from the design altogether, ensuring that in the case of the tank brewing up the machine-gunner had comparatively low chances of survival as he frequently couldn’t get to the turret hatch quickly enough. All this is evidenced with numerous after-action reports from Soviet tankers, as well as by their post-war recollections. Of course, this does not mean that the T-34 was a poor design per se, but the apparent magnitude of the combat problems associated with a rear-mounted transmission makes Rezun’s statements on “rational” and “irrational assembly” sound laughable. How can the tank assembly possibly be “rational” when it so drastically reduces both the machine’s and the crew’s survivability?

A final note – it turns out that Soviet tank designers did utilize a front-mounted transmission, with all its flaws, before, during and even after the war. Naturally, Rezun simply didn’t care to notice these models – which included such “rare” specimens as the T-40, T-60, T-70, and T-80 tanks as well as a great multitude of SU-76 assault guns. [I have deliberately left out the T-26 and T-27 tanks, as while these models were produced in great numbers, they were essentially British designs.] Thus, according to Rezun, the most numerous assault gun of World War 2 (the SU-76) and the second most numerous (after the T-34) Soviet tank of the war, the T-70, were produced with a fatal design flaw. Clearly a case of sabotage on a mind-boggling scale! And even after the war Soviet designers continued to utilize front-mounted transmission in a number of Red Army AFVs. The ZSU-37 (self-propelled AA Gun), for instance, was based on a SU-76 chassis – and if the flaws of front-mounted transmission were so evident, why would the designers continue using it when all semblance of a military crisis had passed?

5. On diesel engines and the diesel tanks’ resistance to brewing up. First, the issue in Rezun’s own words:

"One of the best combat characteristics of Soviet tanks during World War 2 was that they were difficult to set ablaze. More difficult, in fact, than the tanks of any other army of the time.".
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “The flammable tanks”, p. 234)

First off, notice how Rezun does not bother to substantiate this claim with one shred of factual evidence. The writing style is effective enough, of course – this has always been Rezun’s strength – but let’s examine the facts for a moment. For one, as of June 22, 1941, most of Soviet tanks had gasoline rather than diesel engines, precisely the type “susceptible to brewing up” according to Rezun. In fact, all of the following tank models had gasoline engines: T-18, T-26, T-27, T-37, T-38, T-40, BT-2, BT-5, BT-7 (except for 700 BT-7M tanks with an early diesel engine V-2), T-28 and T-35. Over 21,000 tanks in all.

Of course, in June of 1941 the Red Army also fielded tanks with diesel engines – the KV-series and the T-34s for a total of just under 2,600 tanks. In other words at the time of the initial German assault – the very time period that all three of Rezun’s books are focused on – roughly 85% of the USSR’s total tank pool was comprised of machines with “inflammable” gasoline engines. As such, Rezun’s “diesel advantage” is yet another falsification, utilized as proven and undisputed fact throughout his thesis!

Now, Rezun is correct in stating that diesel fuel is harder to ignite than gasoline; you can’t light it up with a match, for example. However, at the same time Rezun conveniently “forgets” that diesel fires are much harder to extinguish, as well as that tank fires are not started with kitchen matches. If a shell has enough energy to pierce a tank’s armor, shouldn’t it also have enough energy to light up diesel fuel? Furthermore, Rezun fails to mention that in a gasoline fire, the gasoline itself does not burn. Rather, gasoline fumes are ignited, leaving a thin layer of air between the flames and the affected surface, e.g. human skin, somewhat dampening the fire’s effects. By contrast, diesel fuel burns in liquid form, resulting in horrific burn injuries to any tankers unfortunate enough to get caught in a diesel fire. Given that during the war burns on over 40% of the body were typically considered lethal, outfitting a majority of Red Army tanks with diesel engines most likely had a highly negative effect on overall tanker survival rates.

Instead of discussing any of this, Rezun offers us his “bucket experiment” (a burning torch is extinguished after being dipped in a bucket filled with diesel fuel), as one actually performed at a Soviet tank factory while it was being visited by members of a government task force on tank diesel engine production. Yet even in describing this experiment Rezun neglects crucial details, namely that the task force, upon viewing this experiment, ignored it as irrelevant and “amateurish”.

Why amateurish? For the very reasons discussed above. Moreover, world's military experience has shown that there was little correlation between fuel type and tank fires. Diesel was selected as the primary fuel type for Red Army tanks mostly due to the specifics of the Soviet economy. Despite ample raw materials (crude oil), a chronically underdeveloped oil-refining sector meant that the country would simply not be able to produce a large quantity of synthetic or natural gasoline. Diesel fuel, on the other hand, can be “cracked” out of crude oil without requiring a high technology base, and is considerably cheaper to produce than either gasoline type. Furthermore, a gasoline engine itself does not offer any meaningful advantages over a diesel engine aside from its more compact size, while a diesel tank engine can generate considerably higher torque at lower gears. Thus, the gasoline engine was judged to be one of the main shortcomings of Lend-Lease tanks shipped to the USSR, and was one of the main reasons for the Red Army’s request for diesel (mark III) rather than gasoline (mark II) Shermans then in service with the U.S. Army, as well as for Soviet refusal of any further Lend-Lease tank deliveries once domestic tank production was restored to adequate levels.

Given Soviet economic realities, diesel fuel and a diesel tank engine rather than their gasoline equivalents proved to be the optimal design solution. This does not necessarily imply that the situation was not precisely the opposite in other countries, including the U.S. and Germany. Germany in particular was forced to rely on synthetic gasoline throughout the war due to its lack of access to sufficient sources of crude oil. Not because, as Rezun asserts (see the quote below), the German designers and generals could not muster enough intelligence to realize the obvious superiority of diesel engines.

Of course, there are many other advantages and shortcomings of both gasoline and diesel engines besides those already discussed – different torque, ignition types, etc. – however to even list them all would require considerable effort beyond the scope of this comparatively brief overview of the issue.

Let’s see what Rezun has to say about diesel engines (same chapter, pp. 236-237):

"The diesel engine was the invention of Rudolf Diesel – a German. The great merit of Soviet engineers was not that they had invented the diesel engine, but that they fully appreciated its potential. The Germans did not recognize their own genius – while the Soviets have..."

Etc. etc. ad nauseam. Reading this, an otherwise uninformed reader cannot help but notice how the clearly near-sighted Germans are outwitted at every turn by the crafty Russians. Not willing to take Rezun at his word, I took the liberty of going straight to the source – in this case, volumes 3 and 4 of the 12-volume Soviet “History of the Second World War” encyclopaedia, which Rezun actually cites as one of his sources. For added effect, I also threw in the memoirs of Albert Speer, the armament minister of those same “near-sighted” Germans who could not see the genius of Rudolf Diesel. Turns out the Germans weren’t that near-sighted after all – but that they had, instead, realized that opting for diesel tank engines would be practically suicidal. How so?

Germany’s strategic weakness stemmed from it simply not having enough crude oil. What oil stocks it did have provided just enough diesel fuel to sustain the German Navies and its submarines, while the Luftwaffe consumed all available natural gasoline. The Germans could synthesize gasoline, but not diesel fuel. Thus, installing diesel engines on German tanks would render the Panzer arm useless, as there would not be enough fuel in all of the Third Reich to sustain any large-scale operations. Compounding the problem, according to Speer, was a chronic shortage of aluminium, which is used for making diesel engine housings.

As a counter-argument, a Rezunist tried to argue that I know nothing of Chemistry and the oil “cracking” process, writing the following:

"May I remind you that ‘oil’ is comprised of a number of DIFFERENT hydrocarbons (loosely classified as light, medium and heavy). Gasoline is the lightest, kerosene is a bit heavier, while tar is the heaviest. That is, refining ANY type of oil will always yield some quantity of GASOLENE, KEROSENE, DIESEL, etc. And prior to the invention of the gasoline engine in the 19th century, producers of kerosene simply did not know what to do with all the gasoline and wound up burning it up as waste."
K. Zakoretsky

Every word of this email is true – however, the author, thinking himself a great chemist and clearly trying to sling some mud while he has the chance, did not bother to cite any specific figures, contenting himself with some generalities about “some quantity” of gasoline. “Some quantity” – what precision! What an insight into the author’s real level of expertise in this subject. And this is supposed to be a technical argument?

For the benefit of the reader, allow me to cite some specifics – the Rezunist quoted above might want to take some of this down so as to impress people with his new-found “knowledge”. The industrial process that Mr. Zakoretsky has attempted to describe is called Fractional Distillation. Fractional Distillation does in fact produce some quantity of gasoline, depending on the quality of the crude oil inputs. In a best case scenario, i.e. fractional distillation of so-called sweet crude (under 0.5% sulphur content), you would expect to convert approximately 20% of total input volume into gasoline, with the rest going to diesel, kerosene, industrial fuel oils, and other heavy oil products. During the 20th Century, the proportion of refined gasoline was improved by the invention of several cracking processes – notably thermal cracking (first used in 1913), where heavy oil fractions are broken down into lighter products, and its more modern equivalent entitled fluid catalytic cracking (first used in 1942), which utilizes heated fluidized catalyst to significantly improve overall gasoline yield.

The primary chemical process that takes place during any sort of cracking involves breaking heavier hydrocarbon molecules into their lighter derivatives. Generally, the cracking process is used on heavy hydrocarbons left over from fractional distillation of crude oil – lubricating oil, asphalt, diesel, industrial fuels, etc. In modern refineries, very heavy fractions (tar) can also be upgraded via a “visbreaking” process, essentially a secondary cracking. The inputs’ chemical composition is made up of mainly paraffin hydrocarbons of varying complexity (e.g. naphthenes, alkanes, etc.). So what exactly takes place during thermal cracking? The inputs are subjected to very high temperatures that break down long input molecules (e.g. alkanes – C20) into shorter hydrocarbons (C2 to C18). Hydrocarbons C5-C9 comprise the gasoline fraction, while C10-C15 make up the diesel fuel fraction. Breaking down the longer molecules also alters the proportionate carbon and hydrogen content in the reaction’s end products. In modern times, the old Thermal Cracking processes have become obsolete for some reasons.

In summary, it is in fact possible to crack heavier oil fractions to obtain some extra quantity of gasoline. Ordinarily, this would be great news for any gasoline-driven army, however, what if the fleet consumes all the heavier oil fractions? What’s left there to crack? Quite a vicious circle – the air force consumes all fractionally distilled gasoline, while the fleet consumes virtually all hydrocarbons that could have been subjected to thermal cracking to produce more gasoline. So what’s left for the army? The German solution to this problem was to make their tanks and AFVs run on synthetic gasoline. Contrast this with, say, the U.S., which had a well-developed refining industry set up specifically to extract the maximum quantity of gasoline from heavy oil products well before World War 2 had even begun. As a result, the U.S. Army had to rely primarily on gasoline engines throughout the war in lieu of refashioning the country’s entire oil industry to produce adequate quantities of diesel fuel, even though the Marine Corps actually preferred diesel tanks. The Marines got away with using diesel tank engines because they drew their fuel from the Navy’s own substantial diesel reserves – something the Army was not able to do. Clearly the choice of diesel over gasoline was more a matter of economics and logistics than combat performance.

Getting back to Rezun’s argument – same chapter, page 244:

"Just prior to the war, the Soviet Union commenced mass production of tank diesel engines and built up sufficient industrial capacity to allow production of any engine quantities during wartime.".

Rezun even highlighted the word “any” to drive his point home. And one paragraph earlier, he mentions the “modern” T-50 tank with its diesel engine design. Let’s examine the fate of the T-50 a bit closer. It turns out that the T-50’s entire production run amounted to just 64 vehicles! Why so few? Because of the tank’s diesel engine, or rather a lack thereof. Despite Rezun’s assertions, the Soviet armaments industry was able to manufacture only 64 T-50 engines through 1942, at which point the tank was taken out of production altogether as no more engines could be produced. Moreover, lack of diesel engine production capacity in 1941 resulted in the installation of M-17T gasoline engines from obsolete BT light tanks on some of the newly produced T-34s! A clear illustration of the USSR’s ability to produce diesel engines in “any” quantities. Nor does the counter-argument that the war interrupted production hold much water – if, according to Rezun, the pre-war Soviet economy was set up to produce diesel engines in “any quantities during wartime”, then the German invasion of 1941 should have had minimal if any impact on production.

Furthermore, although the T-50 was placed into mass production nearly six months before the start of the war, through June 22, 1941 the USSR did not produce a single V-4 diesel engine! Is this what Rezun calls “readiness”? Never mind that no pre-war plan had truly anticipated the scale of German penetration, nor the need to evacuate so many industries (including Factory No.174 responsible for production of V-4 engines). Even after Factory No. 174 resumed operations in November of 1941, having been transplanted to Barnaul along with all its diesel engine assembly equipment and documentation, it could not begin production of V-4 engines all the way through February of 1942, at which time it was ordered to focus on other manufacturing priorities. Over those three months, only fifteen T-50 tanks were produced – not fifteen thousand, just fifteen – and some evidence suggests that their engines were taken from pre-war stocks. This is what Rezun refers to as “capacity to allow production of any engine quantities.”

And here is an interesting quote from a brochure entitled “Design specifics of the Maybach-HL-210-R45 engine and drive train of the German heavy tank T-IV Tiger”, printed by the Red Army in 1943 (cited from A. Isaev’s “10 Myths of World War 2”):

"The German decision to use a gasoline rather than a diesel engine in the new tank model produced in 1942 must be explained by:
a) specifics of Germany’s fuel reserves, which are primarily comprised of synthetic gasoline, benzol and alcohol mixes, unsuitable for burning in diesel engines;
b) comparative superiority of the gasoline engine in such important categories as minimal dimensions for a given power output, starter reliability in wintertime, and ease of manufacture;
c) considerable percentage of tank diesel fires under combat conditions and the diesel engines’ lack of demonstrable superiority in this regard over their gasoline equivalents, especially if the latter include reliable automatic fire extinguishers;
d) the relatively short useful life of tank engines due to the tanks’ very low survivability under combat conditions, which implies that the economic benefits from utilizing diesel fuel rather than gasoline are too short-lived to justify the expenditure of high-strength steel and high quality labour, of which there is a wartime deficit equal to that of high-grade liquid fuels.".

Notably, the document accentuates the financial aspects of the diesel vs. gasoline debate, asserting that the economic cost of relying on diesel tank engines cannot be adequately recouped.

Rezun does not let up:

"First, besides the T-34 and KV tanks on June 22, 1941 the Red army possessed the newest T-40 and T-50 models. Our propagandists ‘forgot’ to include these tanks in their statistics.
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “What tanks did Hitler have?”, p. 273)

All right, let’s address the propagandists’ obvious oversight. Out of sheer curiosity, can Rezun tell us exactly how many T-50 tanks did the Red Army have on June 22, 1941? Unfortunately, no – instead of providing the reader with any specifics on his “first”, our esteemed author immediately moves on to “second”. We, however, do have the actual figure. As of June 22, 1941, the Red Army had no production T-50 tanks in service. Not a one!

And how about the “newest” T-40 model? Well, as of June 22, 1941, the Red army possessed about 280 T-40 tanks. Not a lot, of course, but at least the number is greater than zero. What’s worse is that Rezun cleverly mentions the “newest” T-40 in the same breath as the T-50, the T-34 and the KV series. Yet the T-40 was armed with only machine guns and possessed only bullet-resistant armor, and moreover, equipped with a gasoline engine. These very characteristics, according to Rezun’s method, should render the T-40 “obsolete” and “highly flammable”, and so no better than its Western equivalents. Rezun even goes so far as to ridicule the German Pz II tank, which at the time boasted a truly “newest” 20mm automatic gun, even though the Pz II by far surpassed the T-40 in armor, armament and overall reliability. This is a classic double standard.

"In 1936, production BT-type light tanks were able to cross deep rivers almost entirely underwater. Even at the end of the 20th century, few tanks fielded by the USSR’s likely opponents have this capability.".
(“Icebreaker”, Chapter “Why do the Communists need weapons?”, p.28)



German production tanks Pz.Kpfw III Ausf G Tauchpanzer and Pz.Kpfw IV Ausf D Tauchpanzer, designed for river crossings, and paper-plans for the Soviet BT-5PKh, reflect the true realities of “underwater tanks” at the beginning of the war.

Few tanks...that is entirely true. Not all tank models have or have had this capability, not today, not 50 years ago. But let’s not nitpick at Rezun’s phrase construction – cleverly implying that the old BTs could force deep water obstacles while most modern models cannot, which surely means that the BTs are somehow superior to today’s Abrams, Merkava and Leopard tanks. While we’re on the subject of USSR’s secret weapons, the Red Army even had a KT tank [“Winged Tank” – Transl.] that could fly. At the end of the 20th century, "few tanks fielded by the USSR’s most probable opponents had this capability" – none of their tanks can fly! Does this mean, as Rezun would have us believe, that the world is utterly unprepared for Soviet aggression? Of course not – neither flying nor swimming tanks have any bearing on the Red Army’s offensive readiness, much like their diesel engines or track width.

Regardless, according to Rezun, beginning in 1936 production (not prototype!) BT light tanks could undertake near-submerged river crossings. The language used by Rezun is a bit confusing – perhaps due to imprecise translation - “almost entirely underwater” and “deep rivers”. The maximum depth of a ford that a given tank can cross is a known quantity – for BT light tanks this amounts to 0.85-0.90 metres [roughly 3 feet – Transl.]. Hopefully, no one will insist that a 0.90-metre deep river can be classified as “really deep”. Thus, the crossing of any more substantial bodies of water requires specialized equipment, right? Right. And Soviet engineers were in fact developing this equipment under the heading “PKh” [“Underwater Movement” – Transl.]. So why did Rezun say “almost entirely underwater”, when the only visible part of the submerged tank would be its “schnorkel” (see the drawing)?

In truth, while PKh equipment was tested on prototype BT and other tanks, the USSR had no mass-produced “swim-tanks”, while the much ridiculed by Rezun Germany managed to have production Pz III and Pz IV tanks equipped for underwater river crossings. To reiterate – the USSR had only “daring projects and pretty pictures”, to use one of Rezun’s favoured expressions, while Germany had mass-produced the things. So much for Germany’s “total unpreparedness” for war with the USSR. Once again, Rezun manages to attack or ignore all evidence to the contrary while lauding whatever convenient facts there may or may not be. Still more double standards.

"In 1938, the USSR began installing diesel engines on its BT light tanks. The rest of the world will follow only 10-20 years later".
(“Icebreaker”, Chapter “Why do the Communists need weapons?”, p.28)

Technically, the first production BT tanks with the V-2 diesel engines appeared in 1939, not 1938. At that moment, UK, Italy and Japan all possessed prototype or production diesel engine tanks – not “10-20 years later” as Rezun would have it. While a relatively minor point, it is the aggregate of these “minor points” and “innocent” misconceptions that fuels Rezun’s far-reaching conclusions and the main thrust of his thesis. It is this that forces me to dwell on “minor points”, rather than a desire to split hairs.

Instead of addressing the issue in any way, shape or form, Rezun treats the existence of diesel engine English, Italian and Japanese tanks as an insignificant detail:

"There were some attempts to utilize [diesel engines] in certain Japanese, Italian and American tanks, however these engines were weak and comparatively primitive".
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “On flammable tanks”, p. 234)

Clearly an issue not worth discussing any further, so far as Rezun is concerned. And Rezun himself explains why – A historian’s chief concern is fact; an agitator’s – intonation (“The Last Republic”). On what basis does he regard the foreign diesel models as “some attempts”? Why are mass-produced tanks proclaimed to be “attempts” while our own largely ineffective PPh tank prototypes are declared to be “production tanks”? Care to hazard a guess? Rezun is simply trying to play the reader for a fool, betting that no one will actually bother to verify his “facts”. Rezun openly mocks foreign diesel engines, implying that only an idiot will try to argue with his indisputable logic! And what reader wants to be “the idiot”? Truly, the man’s understanding of human psychology is first rate.

If Rezun insists on using BT tanks as an example, it is probably worth for us to spend a little more time on them:

"The first BT tanks could achieve speeds of 100 kilometres per hour. Soviet sources cite the tank’s maximum speed as 86 or even 70 kilometres per hour – and the reason is very simple. The condition of Soviet roads was such that a too powerful engine tore up the tank’s power drive train, and as a result the tank engines had to have a power restrictor installed. When on paved roadways, the power restrictor could simply be removed..."
(“Icebreaker”, Chapter “Why do the Communists need weapons?”, p. 27)

I would be very curious to see if Rezun could elaborate on his “power restrictor” concept a bit further. In truth, neither the BT light tanks, nor their precursors – the American Christie tanks – had any type of “power restrictors”. I would sincerely suggest Mr. Rezun dispense with his “power restrictor” in favour of a “lie restrictor”. I would also like to know where Rezun got his 100 kilometres per hour figure. According to M. Pavlov and I. Pavlov’s book “Soviet Tanks and SP Guns”, the maximum road speed of BT light tanks only amounted to 71-72 km/h. Perhaps Rezun was referring to the original Christie tanks purchased in the U.S.? No, the Christie didn’t exceed 70 kilometres per hour on paved roads. Even the BT-7M only managed 86 km/h. Curiously, Rezun explains this as follows (same chapter, p.27): “The best Western experts believe that the BT’s maximum road speed was not 70 kilometres per hour, but 70 miles per hour.” What experts, precisely? Rezun conspicuously fails to make any specific attributions – we are supposed to take him at his word. To be perfectly honest, I fully expect some Western book to have made that mistake – substituting miles for kilometres. But I doubt that this would be very widespread, and that the “best Western experts” would explicitly write, “the BT’s road speed was really 70 miles and not 70 kilometres per hour”. In any case, Western sources tend to be fairly inaccurate when it comes to technical characteristics of Soviet tanks, as anyone who has had the chance to compare Soviet and Western literature can tell you. Western historians themselves readily admit this and gladly draw on Soviet sources for this type of data. And so, just where did Rezun get his 100 kilometres per hour is unknown. Given that all the other sources I could find provide substantially different figures, and that Rezun cites these very same sources in his bibliography, the inescapable conclusion is that Rezun deliberately lied.

In any case, why would a tank need a “power restrictor” in the first place? How would limiting the engine’s power output cap the tank’s road speed? Rezun would have been better off talking about restricting the engine’s RPM – but instead he keeps mentioning power, power, power. If the engine was so powerful that it “tore” the power drive train off-road, why wouldn’t it continue to “tear” the power drive train on paved roads if the “power restrictor” were removed? In reality, certain engines (including the V-2 diesel engine) did have a regulator that prevented the engine from falling apart at very high RPM, but not some mythical “power drive train” (another technically ignorant term) that was supposed to be “torn”. This “restrictor” restricted specifically the engine’s RPM, not “power”, and its design did not anticipate easy removal. Quite unlike the “easily removed” “power restrictor” in the quote above. The number of these technical inconsistencies points to one fact – not that Rezun made an innocent error or misspoke, but that Rezun really is ignorant of the subject.

"Here some will interrupt me: why didn’t the Soviet advantages manifest themselves in June of 1941?..
<...>
The Red Army was preparing for an aggression, and so its tanks were assembled on the border itself. The German attack was so sudden that the tankers were gunned down before they could reach their machines, while the tanks themselves were destroyed or captured without crew. (Our own surprise attack could well produce the same effect on the German side, except that the Germans had seven times fewer tanks and so the task of destroying the enemy tank arm was simplified.)"
([“The Last Republic”, Chapter “How to equate prison and Kremlin rations”, p. 399)

Suvorov’s “Road Tanks”: A-20, A-32 and A-34 (T-34).

One has to be a complete ignoramus to write something like this! Does Rezun seriously believe that all 24 thousand Soviet tanks were parked within 500 metres of the border with Germany, and as such the Red Army tankers just couldn’t get to their machines in time? If so, can he perchance deign to offer up a shred of evidence of this “fact”, something he never bothers to do in any of his books? And for the record – “kitchen logic” does not serve as valid evidence. Neither do any hearsay recollections of some unidentified source – Rezun’s “Western experts” come to mind – purportedly saying something to someone at some point in time.

One does not need to be a genius or a military academy graduate, or to draw on some ultra-secret source, to prove the falsehood of Rezun’s assertion. One glance at any map displaying actual deployments of Red Army armored forces on June 22, 1941 should suffice. Such maps tend to be easily available, as the “Kremlin-Lubyanka historians” had never made any efforts to conceal them.

"By 1938, the Soviet Union begins intensive development of a most unusually named tank, the A-20...
<...>
I have long searched for the answer to this question, and found it at Factory No. 183.
<...>
...War veterans insist that the initial meaning of the letter ‘A’ in A-20 is “Avtostradnyj” [“Roadway” – Transl.] – though I do not know whether this interpretation is correct. Personally, I find this explanation believable. The A-20 tank represents the next step in the evolution of BT-type light tanks. If the main distinguishing characteristic of the BT tanks are embodied in their official designation [BT stands for “Bystrohodnyj Tank” or Fast Tank in Russian – Transl.], why not that of the A-20? The main purpose of the A-20 – to get to a paved roadway using tracked movement, then to transform into the king of speed by discarding the tracks."
(“Icebreaker”, Chapter “Why do Communists need weapons?”, pp. 30-31)

First and foremost, note the conspicuous absence of any named “war veterans”. Again with the “someone said something somewhere to someone at some point in time”! And this is deliberate – first, to render impossible any attempt at verification of Rezun’s assertions, and second to increase his credibility with the reader: “look at what a thorough researcher I am, I’ve searched for the answer to this for oh so very long, couldn’t even sleep at night, eventually wound up going all the way to Factory No. 183 and interviewing all the war veterans and finally found the answer that the Kremlin historians didn’t want me to find!” And since the A-20 designation really stands for “Roadway-20”, Rezun is free to draw conclusions of truly cosmic scale, that the USSR was at last stage of preparing for combat operations in Germany (where, as “everybody” knows, there are plenty of good paved roads).

In reality, the “A” designation was assigned to all tank models under development in Kharkov's Factory No.183 [much like the “X” designation assigned to prototype U.S. military aircraft – Transl.]. The A-20 model was, in fact, being developed as a dual mode wheeled/tracked tank, however Soviet designers were also working on a fully tracked counterpart, the A-32. And another A-tank in pre-war development – the A-34 – was also fully tracked. Perhaps Rezun was not aware that the A-34 was eventually put into service as the T-34, since according to Rezun, the “A” index means that the T-34 was actually a “roadway” tank!

Also mistaken is the thesis that a wheeled tank cannot be used in the USSR, requiring something like the German Autobahn to operate effectively. How exactly would the Soviet designers go about building a “roadway” tank in the first place if they didn’t have anywhere to test-drive it? There are reams of documentary and photographic evidence of successful trials and combat employment of wheeled BT tank models in the USSR and specifically in rough terrain. The main design goal of a wheeled tank is actually not to attain a higher top speed (which, by the way, has little to do with the overall speed of a tank column in march order). Rather, the switch to a wheeled mode of locomotion is made in an attempt to conserve track life, which at the time did not exceed a few hundred kilometres. Later on, a new track type with much smaller links and a greater useful life was developed, and wheeled movement became completely unnecessary. [Contrast, for instance, the useful life of a BT-type track – about 500 kilometres – with the useful life of a small-link T-34 track – nearly 2,500 kilometres.]

Rezun asserts that Zhukov allegedly did not like wheeled BT tanks based on their performance during the battles at Khalkhin Gol. Perhaps. But how is this relevant to the events of 1941? Even if Zhukov did not personally like wheeled BT tanks, this would have happened in 1939, when the question of combined wheeled/tracked tanks was still vigorously debated in design bureaus and at all levels of the government. In the end, in that same year (1939), the design bureaus held parallel trials of the wheeled/tracked A-20 and its fully tracked counterpart, the A-32. As a result of these trials, the fully tracked design won over, and the A-32’s successor – the T-34 – was built as a fully tracked machine. All this took place a year and a half before the USSR’s war with Germany. I reiterate, A FULL YEAR AND A HALF BEFORE THE WAR WITH GERMANY, STALIN CONSCIOUSLY REJECTED THE “ROADWAY” TANKS SO NECESSARY TO MOUNT AN INVASION OF GERMANY.
Feel free to draw your own conclusions from this...

"The Red Army was planning a sudden attack on July 6, 1941, and as with any grandiose undertaking, found itself in the midst of feverish preparations. In the tank arm, this meant replacing tracks and road wheels, reassembling transmission systems, taking apart weapons – and before work can be started, removing all fuel, oil and ammunition from the tank itself. (The Germans have gone through the exact same preparations in mid-June.) A sudden assault on any army in this condition is its death sentence".
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “How to equate prison and Kremlin rations”, p. 399)

Of course, if an army is led by mindless dilettantes or by escapees from an insane asylum, Rezun’s assertions would be absolutely accurate. Fortunately, both the Red Army and its Western counterparts have typically tried to keep such men away from positions of authority. In other words, the above passage is not military reality; it’s ravings of a lunatic! I hope the reader can forgive my harshness in this, but there is simply no other way to describe it. No sane military commander would ever allow for a state of zero battle-readiness in his unit. Because unlike Rezun, this commander would have gone through a military academy of some sort, and would know that his unit was either battle-ready or it was not – not battle-ready “for attack only”, or “for defence only”. And that a commander who knowingly allowed zero battle-readiness in his unit for any period of time would be summarily court-marshalled. That’s why maintenance and rearming are always done sequentially, by battalion, never all at once across an entire division (let alone an entire army). As such, most of a given formation is always ready to engage in combat operations unless this formation has been removed well into the army’s rear to be reformed or for massive replacements.

Of course, prior to any march or combat engagement a tank needs to be inspected, especially its most unreliable components. But this does not require taking apart the machine’s transmission, draining all fuel and oil from the engine and removing the tank’s ammunition! There are strict regulations on tank maintenance covering oil checks (and topping it off rather than draining it!), fuel line checks, coolant checks, battery checks and so forth, most requiring a visual inspection. It is not actually necessary to take the tank apart! All the necessary technical information on any given tank is contained in the tank’s technical manual and is or should be well known by any driver, mechanic, tank commander, company maintenance officer and so forth. Furthermore, these technical manuals are by and large unclassified, and today can be found in almost every substantial technical library. And so Rezun’s assertion that “I spend virtually all my money on books. My library, of which I am very proud, contains 407 volumes on tanks alone” (“The Last Republic, Chapter “What tanks did Hitler have?”, p. 282) looks to me like a deliberate falsehood design to gain reader trust. And quite vulgar as well: to have not less than 407 volumes on tanks and not bother going through even one T-34 manual (more than 65,000 of which were printed!) – please!

It’s the same way with the A-20. There was never a need to invent a touching story about a visit to Factory No. 183 and non-existent conversations with nameless veterans. All one needs to do is open a copy of “Youth And Technology” [Soviet equivalent of “Popular Mechanics” – Transl.] from 1983 that ran an article by I.P. Shmelev entitled “The Famous T-34” in the “Our Tank Museum” section. A full third of the article is devoted to the story of the A-20 and A-32 tanks. There are even colour illustrations of the A-20 by M. Petrovsky. Can anyone really believe that “Youth And Technology” magazine was a top-secret publication by the “Lubyanka historians”??? There is no need to inflate one’s credentials with talk of “407 volumes on tanks alone”. Especially as nearly every Soviet book on the T-34 tank also covers the A-20 and A-32 prototypes. One has to believe that Rezun either did not read any of his “407 volumes”, or is deliberately advancing a false interpretation of the “A” in A-20.

2. Rezun on Red Army’s shortage of maps of the USSR

In “The Last Republic” chapter entitled “Why did Comrade Stalin not execute Comrade Kudryavtsev?”, Rezun insists that the Red Army did not have any maps of the Soviet Union precisely because it never planned to conduct defensive operations. As proof, he offers up a touching story of the only map possessed by one of the divisions in the 22nd Army. Except that Rezun fails to mention that our military began to experience map shortages not at the outset of the war, but rather after they retreated behind the Dnieper River. At that point, there really were map shortages as pre-war Soviet war plans did not anticipate such a deep penetration of the USSR’s borders – it was always assumed that any invader would be quickly thrown back to his starting positions. But Rezun never does mention any of this, because it flatly contradicts his theories. He must have known about it, but did not mention it, except once when he must have misspoken. In November of 1941, Golikov was a Lieutenant General commanding the 10th Army…but the problem remained: “We had only two maps – one kept by me, the other by my chief of staff.” [“The Last Republic”, Chapter “Why did Comrade Stalin not execute Comrade Kudryavtsev?”, p. 252]

Dear Mr. Rezun – you yourself have just informed us that you are talking about November. Out of sheer curiosity, where exactly was the frontline at that exact point in time? Anywhere near the German border?

3. Rezun on Soviet artillery

"The Chekists’ offensive plans are evidenced by the howitzer regiments fielded by the NKVD. Small and medium calibre guns fire directly, and so are good for defence: direct fire forces an attacking enemy to stop, lie down, dig himself into cover. But if we are on the attack ourselves, and our enemy is defending from the comfort of prepared trench lines, direct fire helps us very little: the firing trajectories are low, and shells harmlessly pass over enemy trenches – it is then that we need howitzers. Howitzers are distinguished from guns by their steep firing trajectories…If we are preparing for offensive operations, we have to produce howitzers, for defensive operations – guns, and of course prior to a defensive war we would have armed Red Army combat units, not NKVD detachments."
(“Icebreaker”, Chapter “Why do the Checkists need howitzer artillery?”, p.70)

Picturesque, isn’t it. Howitzers are great on offence while direct-fire guns, especially of small and medium calibres, are downright horrible. Thus, we must deduce that the relative quantity of guns and howitzers in an army can tell us if that army is preparing to attack or defend. If there are a lot of howitzers, it must be readying itself to attack, while a lot of guns means preparations to defend. And this artillery is, of course, distributed to regular combat units like rifle divisions. All right, let’s believe Rezun for the moment. Here is a quote from “Day M”, chapter “On artillery regiments”, p.464:

"Besides increasing the number of artillery regiments themselves, there were other ways to increase the army’s firepower. Prior to the Fall of 1939 each rifle division had 18 45-mm anti-tank guns. After Khalkhin Gol, the number in each division was tripled to 54. Outwardly, the same exact division, but with triple the anti-tank guns.".

What a passage! So after Khalkhin Gol our army must have been intensively preparing for defensive operations, since it tripled the number of small-calibre (45mm) direct-fire guns in its rifle divisions rather than increase the number of howitzers in NKVD formations!

How could Rezun allow for this discrepancy? Evidently he seeks to interpret the very same set of facts in whatever manner suits his current thesis. Again with the double standards!

Rezun’s embarrassment also lies in that not one of his assertions on guns and howitzers quoted above is actually correct. Both guns and howitzers are required in both attack and defence. Being a complete dilettante, Rezun must be imagining a strategic offensive in almost action movie-like terms. Yet every large combat operation (and yes, every large offensive) entails all tactical elements, attack, defence, etc. The attacking troops can be called upon to repulse sudden counter-attacks, and guns were used to target not just enemy trenches, but bunkers, gun and MG nests, houses, and counter-attacking tanks and infantry.

A Rezunist once said to me that I “probably [am not] aware that 45-mm guns were anti-tank, and so were meant specifically to destroy enemy tanks.” Of course I had no idea that the 45-mm Battalion Gun Model 1932/1938 with factory index 19-K was classed as “anti-tank” because it was the infantry’s main anti-tank weapon. How could I possibly know this? I just don’t understand one thing – if the gun was designed for tank killing why two thirds of the standard ammunition package for it consisted of high explosive anti-personnel shells?

4. Rezun on artillery shells “on the ground”

"In April of 1941, the Main Artillery Directorate of the Red Army received the following order: production of the People’s Commissariat for Ammunition is to be transported to the Western border and placed on the ground. Ask any war veteran what this means. Even the Kremlin-Lubyanka historians are forced to admit that Stalin was preparing an aggression, Stalin was preparing to enslave Europe, but, they say, Stalin could only have done this in 1942. Let’s ask these historians, is it rational to leave out in the open to suffer the Autumn rains, the Winter snows and the Spring mud some quantity of ammunition, let’s say five hundred thousand tons?..
The order to leave these shells on the ground signified a decision made in 1941 to begin the war in 1941; there is simply no other way to explain this fact."
(“Day M’, Chapter “How to build gunpowder factories?”, p.420)

Has the honourable Mr. Rezun innocently forgotten to include a footnote on this purported document? How odd, given his propensity to footnote every single, however irrelevant quotation! Regardless, I wasn’t embarrassed to admit that I knew little about ammunition storage, and, following Rezun’s suggestion, sought out the relevant literature. And as it turns out, the real answer to the “shells on the ground” question is far from the one suggested by Rezun himself. It seems that storing ammunition in open air is not only permissible, but even encouraged. Not quite “under the open blue sky”, of course, but under a tent or some comparable cover. Why? Because a full-blown ammunition warehouse is a very expensive proposition. Shells can be kept for years in open-air ammo dumps with no ill effects because the storage conditions are carefully monitored, each shell is covered in a layer of oil or paint, and the shells themselves are packed in sturdy wooden crates.

Notice that Rezun never really explains what the phrase “shells on the ground” really means. Contrary to an image of shells literally strewn about on the ground (which is what Rezun implies), the term does not mean, “dump the shells into whatever mudhole you can find”. Rather, the Red Army term “placing shells on the ground” means precisely establishing the open-air ammo dumps I have described in the previous paragraph – tented or covered wooden crates on boards or some other artificial surface. A knowing wink does not mean that the phrases “on the ground” and “in the mud” here mean the same thing – they do not!

As to the order to transport ammunition to the Western borders, I would like to point out Rezun’s clever sentence construction: “...production of the People’s Commissariat for Ammunition is to be transported...” Every artillery shell is “production of the People’s Commissariat for Ammunition”. Therefore even if I dump only a single shell in a wood near the Western border, the statement “he transported the production of the People’s Commissariat for Ammunition towards the Western border” would still be correct! Even though psychologically the reader is tempted to read “all production...” The omission of one small word, “all”, changes everything! It could well be that the directive cited by Rezun really meant for only 10%-15% of the shells to be transported westward, with the remaining 85%-90% kept elsewhere. Clever, isn’t it? And yet a careful read somehow dispels the illusion of aggressive USSR stacking shells in open air in the woods near its border with Germany.

So, were the shells transported westward or weren’t they? Some quantity probably was, don’t border formations need ammunition? The question is what that quantity was, and where exactly were the shells stored. Let’s take the example of the Western Special Military District (WSMD). All distances cited refer to the ammo dumps’ closeness to the Western border, while figures indicate the number of shells in the inventory of a specific storage facility:

3rd Army:
- Grodno (30 kilometres) – RAD - 856, PSS - 1,498, RFS - 919, PFS -1,020, RPS – 817, PPS – 1,241
- Lida (120 kilometres) – RFS – 928, PFS – 1,022, RPS – 816
- Mosty (110 kilometres) – RFS – 929, PFS – 1,033

10th Army:
- Hainuvka (70 kilometres) – RSS – 838, PSS – 1,447, RFS – 926, PFS – 1,048
- Belostok (80 kilometres) – RFS – 920, PFS – 1,040, RPS – 1,048
- Mon’ki (40 kilometres) – RFS – 923, PFS – 1,019
- Chervonnyi Bor (?) – PFS – 1,018
- Volkovysk (120 kilometres) – PFS – 1,044, RPS – 818
- Bel’sk (50 kilometres) – RFS – 925, PFS – 1,038

4th Army
- Bronno Gura (120 kilometres) – RSS – 843, PSS – 1,483
- Pinsk (170 kilometres) – RSS – 847, PSS – 1,484
- Kobrin (50 kilometres) – RFS – 921, PFS – 1,034
- Cheremha (40 kilometres) – RFS – 927, PFS – 1,024
- Oranchitsy (100 kilometres) – RFS – 930, PFS – 1,023
- Lahva (210 kilometres) – RFS – 933, PFS – 1,025
- Brest-Litovsk (0 kilometres) – RPS – 821, PPS – 1,321
- Luninets (210 kilometres) – PPS – 1,319

RSS – Regional Shell Storage
PSS – Primary Shell Storage
RFS – Regional Fuel Storage
PFS – Primary Fuel Storage
RPS – Regional Provisions Storage
PPS – Primary Provisions Storage

The “primary storage” areas were most likely comprised of ammunition train cars parked at railheads.

As can be readily observed from the list above, few artillery ammo dumps were situated close to the Western border. Storing ammunition even 80-100 kilometres inside Soviet territory cannot serve as evidence of imminent aggression – even the most long-range of Red Army guns had a maximum firing range of under 30 kilometres. As such, if we had been planning to bombard German territory, we would have positioned both our artillery and its ammo dumps no further than 20-25 kilometres from the border. Situating the ammo dumps further away speaks to precisely the opposite intentions – of conducting defensive operations. The artillery was sited BEHIND our planned defensive lines, so as to be able to provide adequate artillery support while remaining well out of range of any German counter-battery gunfire. The ammo dumps followed the artillery. Why else warehouse artillery shells up to 500 kilometres away from the border? What’s left for the units on the border itself?

I wonder if Rezun fully comprehends how many shells a single howitzer requires for, say, an hour-long bombardment. And what that quantity of shells physically looks like. I suspect he does know the answer to both these questions, but chooses to remain silent. Many of his readers, however, probably don’t know, and so can find it reasonable to envision the Germans capturing gigantic ammunition dumps in the border districts. The dumps themselves may be gigantic in size, but does that also imply a huge quantity of actual shells?

As an example, let’s take the widely used Soviet 122-mm Field Howitzer M-30. Its technical characteristics state that the howitzer can fire six rounds per minute – however let us assume it actually fires at only half this rate. Thus, over the course of firing a one-hour bombardment, the howitzer will consume 3 x 60 = 180 artillery shells. That’s over 200 shells for ONE howitzer to fire ONE hour-long bombardment at a drastically reduced rate of fire. Now imagine a bombardment that lasts two hours, or three. How many shells will ONE howitzer go through over three hours? What about a battery of four howitzers? Or an entire howitzer regiment?

My edition of “Day M” includes – presumably for added effect – a photograph (included here) of a destroyed ammunition train with multitudes of shells scattered along the ground. And an appropriate caption as well – my God, how many shells! While in reality, the number shown probably wouldn’t suffice for a single bombardment fired by one howitzer regiment.

5. Rezun on the thousands of “war-ending” TB-7 heavy bombers

"With thousands of invincible TB-7s, any invasion can be pre-empted. All one has to do is invite the military representatives of certain states to a firing range somewhere in the Volga steppes, and have them watch the bombers dump from incomprehensible altitude FIVE THOUSAND TONNS OF BOMBS. And to tell them this: this demonstration has nothing to do with you, but rather is a surprise for the capital of whatever state chooses to attack as. Precision? None whatsoever. From whence? We’re bombing from incomprehensible altitude. But a lack of precision will be offset by repeated bombardments. Every day, five thousand tons dropped on the aggressor’s capital, and then on some of his other cities, until we reach the desired result. By the time it takes the enemy to reach Moscow, can you guess how much will be left of his cities? The TB-7s are practically invincible in the air, and their bases are too far inward and too well protected to be reached by invading ground troops. And our probable opponents don’t have strategic bombers of their own. And now, gentlemen, let us drink to everlasting peace...
<...>
...so could Stalin’s diplomats address the foreign delegations, had the USSR had a thousand TB-7s. But Stalin refused to build a thousand TB-7s...
<...>
If the five thousand tons of bombs dropped in a single TB-7 raid are translated into the language of modern strategy, they amount to FIVE KILOTONS. That’s the terminology of the nuclear age. If five kilotons aren’t enough, two raids will yield ten. And twenty kilotons – that’s roughly what was dropped on Hiroshima."
(“Day M”, Chapter “Why did Stalin destroy his strategic bombers?”, p.353)

During the war, the Allies dropped enough bombs on German cities to make up several hundred Hiroshimas. The destruction was immense, but the German war industry never ceased to function, and the war did not end until Germany itself was overrun. Moreover, the Wehrmacht was still somehow capable of mounting meaningful counter-attacks on two fronts at once. So I’m afraid that two or even five thousand TB-7 could not have averted the war. At worst, the Germans would have busied themselves with developing appropriate countermeasures – e.g. extra-long ranged anti-aircraft artillery and high-altitude interceptors. Although during the war, the Germans did develop a number of super-weapons, to little avail.

Rezun is clearly trying to impress the reader by describing the supposed might of the TB-7 in terms associated with the nuclear age. A few raids by a thousand TB-7s somehow equals a 20-kiloton nuclear bomb dropped on Hiroshima. But let’s ask ourselves this – why is it that not a single opponent of nuclear weapons has ever surrendered to their wielder? Not Korea, not Viet Nam, not Iraq in 1991. [This article was written well before the U.S. attacks on the Taliban in Afghanistan in 2001 and on Saddam Hussein’s Iraq 2003, though arguably those two regimes were overthrown after suffering conventional military defeats rather than via the threat or actual use of nuclear weaponry – Transl.] That their opponent (the U.S.) possessed one of the most powerful armies in the world and nuclear weapons meant not an iota! They didn’t wind up crawling on their knees before Uncle Sam, begging him for clemency and toasting “everlasting peace”. Instead, they took up arms, and history proved that even a weak and technically backward army can force a powerful nuclear-armed enemy to retreat and sue for peace. So why should Hitler have been afraid of TB-7s, especially since, after all, a TB-7 was not actually a nuclear bomb?

The very approach to the TB-7 question in the above passage is flawed; militarily speaking, a thousand TB-7s cannot be crudely equated to a single atomic weapon. Under this logic, you could translate some large quantity of hand grenades into megatons and try to frighten some enemy with the resulting figures – “just try and attack us, we’ll toss a nuke at you...from our trenches!” Quite a "fearsome" boast!

The pre-war realities of Soviet industry did not permit the engineers and government leaders to entertain any illusions with regards to building that many TB-7s. This is demonstrated by numerous period documents describing actual production plans – they speak not of a thousand, and not even of a hundred, but of barely one or two dozen! Contrast, for instance, the numbers cited in the following two excerpts with Rezun’s “one thousand”:

"In order to provide the Air Force with four-engine military transport and long-range bomber aircraft, the Defence Commissariat orders:
1. To make Narkomaviaprom – Shahurin, A.I. and director of Factory No. 124 Shteinberg – responsible for organizing production of TB-7 aircraft at Factory No. 124. To find that the TB-7 aircraft must fulfil the following functions:
   a) long-range bomber;
   b) a military transport.
2. To institute prior to the end of 1940 the following TB-7 delivery schedule at Factory No. 124 (in excess of 2 aircraft delivered in the first quarter of 1940):
   With engine AM-35A (without ACN-2) – 10 aircrafts;
   With engine M-30 – 1 aircraft;
   With engine M-40 – 1 aircraft;
   With engine M-40F – 1 aircraft.
Total – 13 aircrafts."
Commissariat of Defence Order No.227cc dated May 25, 1940

And the second cite:

"...
7. Due to the delays in prototype construction and the start of mass-production of the TB-7 aircraft (since 1935), which have rendered certain flight performance characteristics of the TB-7 aircraft obsolete compared with other aircraft types, and also due to the lack of combat experience in employment of this aircraft type, the necessity of mass-production of the TB-7 aircraft is placed into question. Maintaining production of the TB-7 aircraft does have a number of advantages:
a) The aircraft’s partial obsolescence is explained by its underdevelopment, which means the full technical potential of the aircraft has not yet been reached;
b) Combat experience with the TB-7 aircraft may be acquired in the near future, as Factory No. 24 has already produced on series (3 units) of the aircraft for testing;
c) The four-engine bomber concept is being heavily promoted overseas;
d) Ending production of the TB-7 would be a serious blow to our production capacity for heavy aircraft (as we do not currently possess a heavy bomber with better performance characteristics);
e) Factory No. 124, which has mastered TB-7 production with considerable difficulty, would have to be switched to producing a different machine, which would delay its full production ramp-up for another two years.
Given this, it is imperative to maintain mass-production of the TB-7 aircraft. At the same time, the Factory No. 124 Design Bureau could be tasked with designing a new, modern plane on the basis of the TB-7."
Explanatory note to the annual report of 11 GU NKAP, dated January 1940

Let’s look at this last phrase one more time – “designing a new, modern aircraft on the basis of the TB-7” – and let’s look at the date – January of 1940. This means that as early as the start of 1940, the TB-7 was already considered to be obsolete.

A very good analysis of the TB-7 is provided by historian Sergei Kharlamov in his critique of Rezun thought his article is in Russian.

6. Rezun on defeating Germany through an assault on the Ploesti oil fields in Romania

"If even a thousand Soviet tanks are committed to destroying the 60 Rumanian machines, hundreds and thousands of other Red Army tanks can engage in an unobstructed advance on Ploesti by the most direct route. Assuming a top speed of 25 kilometres per hour, we would need only 7-8 hours to reach it. One night. Except that ours are not ordinary tanks – they are fast tanks especially created for this type of operation. The terrain before Ploesti is open, with hard ground and good roads. The BT tanks can easily reach 40-50 kilometres per hour, or even 70-80 kilometres per hour if they remove their tracks. THREE hours to reach Ploesti.
And it’s not necessary to have all the tanks reach the oil derricks: just ten would be enough. The oil fields can be ignited with incendiary shells…or a soldier’s lighter."
(“The Last Republic”, Chapter “How many hours to Ploesti”)

I would pay good money to see how Rezun plans to ignite the oil fields with a soldier’s lighter. But let’s press on (same chapter):

"On August 23, 1939, Stalin (with the hand of Molotov) signed in Moscow a pact giving Hitler a war on two fronts, one that allowed the British fleet to blockade Germany and prevent any oil imports by sea. Germany had only one meaningful source of oil remaining. Its loss would have caused Germany’s industry and its army, navy and air force to grind to a halt. It is impossible to wage war without oil. Oil is not just fuel, it is a vital input for the chemical industry, for which there is no substitute. If one Soviet company of ten tanks appears near Ploesti, and if every tanker has a single matchbox in his pocket, the war in Europe will end with the destruction of the Third Reich".

And, finally, Rezun’s summation (same chapter):

"Conclusion: beginning in August of 1939, from the moment the Molotov-Ribbentrop pact was signed, all of Continental Europe lived under the threat of the Soviet axe. A strike at the oil heart of Europe could have been its death knell. All Soviet tanks, both old and new models, fresh from the tank factories or in use for years, constituted a threat not just to Germany, but to all of Europe".

Let’s review: Rezun alleges that to defeat Germany, and perhaps all of Europe, it is sufficient to capture or destroy the Rumanian oil fields.

All right, let’s turn to another source for a moment. For instance, the Military History Journal that Rezun himself so likes to quote. According to its data, in 1941 the Reich itself produced 1.3 million tons of liquid fuels and synthesized a further 4.1-4.3 million tons. Total imports, including from Romania, comprised 5 million tons. Reserves on hand amounted to 8 million tons. Unfortunately, the Military History Journal does not state exactly what proportion of oil imports came from Romania. For argument’s sake, let’s assume Romania accounts for all German imports, and that all of Rumania’s Ploesti output flows into Germany, even though this can’t really be the case – even after Rumania’s incorporation into the Reich, some of its oil production was still being sent to Italy. Thus, in the course of one year and assuming full utilization of existing oil reserves as well as no ability to increase production of synthetic fuels, the total quantity of oil that could be consumed amounts to 18.5 million tons with Rumanian imports, and 13.5 million tons without. As such, even under this theoretical worst-case scenario, the German armed forces’ overall fuel supplies decreased by at most 27%. To reiterate, this scenario assumes that all Rumanian oil flows to the Reich, and that Germany has no other sources of oil imports. The conclusion – the longer the war goes, the greater the impact of losing Rumanian oil, but given the very narrow time frame for the war envisioned by Rezun the loss is fairly meaningless to the German war effort.

In 1941, Ploesti was bombed by the Soviet “DB” bombers. According to Soviet data, the bombings reduced the oil fields’ production capacity by more than 70%. In 1944, Ploesti came under repeated attacks by Allied bombers, and production fell by 50%. In August of 1944, Ploesti was finally overrun by Soviet troops, but German resistance continued until May of 1945 with massive counter-offensives mounted on both Eastern and Western fronts.

Turns out Germany really could continue the war without Rumanian oil. Unsurprisingly, Rezun prefers to omit any actual figures in his discussion of Rumanian oil, lest his theories burst like so many soap bubbles.

7. Rezun on the SU-2 aircraft

"Besides that, during work on the “Ivanov” project someone’s invisible but powerful hand was directing those who strayed from the general course
...Pavel Sukhoi made his first “Ivanov” entirely of metal. Simpler – said someone’s intimidating voice. Leave the wings metallic, but make the fuselage out of plywood. The speed will fall? That’s all right, let it fall. Strange inclinations of Comrade Stalin? No. This is implacable logic: we will strike suddenly, and destroy the enemy air force on the ground, after which we will have the skies to ourselves. The enemy aircraft will become a rarity in the skies.".
(“Day M”, Chapter “Regarding Ivanov”)

Same book (“Day M”) but different chapter – “The Winged Genghis-Khan”:

"Stalin’s plan: create an aircraft that can be produced in quantities far exceeding those of all combat aircraft in all other countries of the world put together. Production plans for the main “Ivanov” model envisioned 100-150 thousand aircraft.
...
This poses a question: if we produce 100-150 thousand light bombers, won’t our neighbours become disconcerted? Let’s not ask such questions. Let’s not count ourselves as smarter than Stalin. Let’s give our due to Stalin’s cunning.
Stalin never planned to mass-produce the “Ivanov” in peacetime. Not at all. The Soviet mobilization was divided into two periods: open, and secret. The secret mobilization entailed production of a small (by Soviet standards) number of aircraft – only a few hundred
...
After our first strike, the “Ivanov” will be mass-produced by the tens of thousands. “Ivanov” is an invisible mobilization reserve.".

I don’t quite understand how the USSR can neutralize all (!) enemy aircraft in a single strike if 100 thousand SU-2 bombers will only be produced after the war begins? What exactly will the enemy aircraft be neutralized with? Paint ourselves into a corner again, did we?

I would also like to ask Rezun about the source of his “100 thousand” figure. Rezun himself never bothers to explain this – for him, 100 or 150 thousand is all the same, never mind the 50 thousand (!) difference. Further on down (same book and chapter):

"If along with the SU-2 they had ordered an appropriate number of escort fighters, the SU-2 could have been used under any combat circumstances, for example to mount counter-strikes against an aggressor.
...
The SU-2 production was halted. It was not necessary for defensive warfare."

So if we’re getting ready for a war of aggression, we need more bombers than fighters, and if we’re planning defensive operations, we need more fighters than bombers. Very well. Now, let’s look at some documents – for instance, a resolution by the Soviet of the People’s Commissars dated April 12, 1941 entitled “On the current production orders of the Defence Commissariat, Fleet Commissariat and the NKVD for the second quarter of 1941” (Russian Federation Archives, F.93). To the reader’s considerable surprise, it turns out that notwithstanding Rezun’s assertions the orders for fighter aircraft significantly exceeded those for bombers:

Fighter aircraft – 2,179 units;
Sturmovik (ground attack) aircraft – 402 units;
Bombers – 1,099 units;
Naval reconnaissance aircraft – 20 units;
Training aircraft – 776 units;
Transport aircraft – 60 units;
Aircraft engines – 9,325 units.

Here, the fighter orders are nearly double those for bomber aircraft. So under Rezun’s logic, what kind of war was the Soviet Union preparing for? Clearly a defensive one!

By the way, the appendix to the same document breaks the figures down by aircraft type. Turns out that during the second quarter of 1941, the total SU-2 production was set at 190 units. Not 190 thousand units, merely 190 units!

Rezun’s “100 thousand” SU-2 aircraft merits further attention. Reading and re-reading Rezun nets zero supporting evidence for this figure. In other words, Rezun made it up. But he did so cleverly – first he throws the number “100 thousand” out there, and then over the span of several pages in the chapter (“The Winged Genghis-Khan”) he repeats it in practically every paragraph. Only when the book reaches its next chapter (“The Incubator”) does he suddenly “explain” the 100 thousand figure:

"This is, of course, merely a coincidence but a Soviet one: in 1936 Stalin issued a secret order authorizing the development of the “Ivanov” aircraft, of which 100-150 thousand units could be produced, and in that same year the Soviet youth organizations decide to train 150 thousand pilots."

Notice Rezun’s cleverness – first he throws out a figure “100 thousand aircraft”, and then adds to it the prototypical Bolshevist slogan “Let’s train 150,000 pilots!” Anyone who had lived in the USSR well knows that there were thousands of these “Let’s” slogans plastered on practically every building, and they were hardly ever taken seriously. By coincidence, the two figures matched, and Rezun discovered Stalin’s grandiose top-secret plans. Though realistically speaking, Rezun probably noticed the “Let’s” slogan first, and then figured that 100 thousand pilots need 100 thousand aircraft. And only then thought up the whole “secret order” story, along with some made-up math to make the story believable.

"The Osoaviahim organization grows steadily. By the end of 1939 it includes 4 flight instructor schools, 12 technical schools, 36 glider clubs and 192 aviation clubs.
How many aircraft did Osoaviahim have – I do not know. However each aviation club is, first and foremost, an airfield. An airfield probably had more than one or two aircraft – why else build it?.."

And so forth. By means of this “kitchen-logic”, the reader is led to believe that the Soviet Union had a veritable horde of aircraft because there were lots of airfields, because there were many aviation clubs. Somehow the fact that several clubs could be attached to the same airfield is conveniently left out. With even two or three clubs attached per airfield, Rezun’s “horde” of aircraft is reduced measurably – and in reality, oftentimes a single airfield hosted a good deal more than three aviation clubs.

Bibliography:

  1. “The History of World War Two” Encyclopedia, 1975, volumes 3-4
  2. Military History Journal 1990-1998
  3. “The Great Patriotic War 1941-1945”, edited by V. Zolotarev et al., 1998, volumes 1-4
  4. G.M. Tretjakov, “Artillery Ammunition”, Voenizdat, 1947
  5. Albert Speer, “Memoirs”
  6. A. Isaiev, “Antisuvorov: the big lie of the little man”, Jauza, 2004
  7. A. Isaiev, “10 Myths of World War Two”, Jauza, 2004
  8. V. Chobitk, “Theory and history of tank design”, article submitted to the journal “Polygon”
  9. T.Jentz, "Panzer Truppen", vol.1, Schiffer Military History, Atglen, PA
  10. U.Feist "The German Panzers from MarkI to MarkV Panther", Aero Publishers Inc.
  11. W.Spielberger, U.Feist "Sturmartillerie" Aero Publishers Inc.
  12. M. Svirin, “Main guns of Soviet tanks 1940-1945”, Armada-Verticale No. 4, 1999
  13. I. Zheltov, M. Pavlov, I. Pavlov, “BT Tanks”, Armada
  14. M. Baryatinskij, “Medium tank T-34”, Armor-collection No.3, 1999
  15. I. Zheltov, M. Pavlov, I. Pavlov, “Soviet medium tanks of the pre-war period”, Eksprint, 2000
  16. Report on numbers and condition of Red Army tanks dated June 1, 1941
  17. Soviet of the People’s Commissars, “On the current production orders of the Defense Commissariat, Fleet Commissariat and the NKVD for the second quarter of 1941”, April 12, 1941
  18. Note to Red Army deputy chief of staff major-general A.M. Vasilevsky entitled “Tank deliveries to newly-formed mechanized corps”
  19. Article by Vasilij Chobitok
  20. Article by Sergei Kharlamov
  21. Article by Mikhail Svirin
  22. Article by Dmitri Khazanov
  23. Web site of M. Geras’kin

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Last Updated ( Tuesday, 02 December 2008 )
 
Discuss (87 posts)
Staryi_prapor
Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 19 2008 20:11:30
Îáñóæäåíèå ñòàòüè: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê

Panzerknacher! À ãäå âñ¸ ÷òî áûëî???
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panzerknacker
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 19 2008 20:39:27
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Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 20 2008 16:52:34
Óâàæàåìûé V_P. ß, íå ñîâñåì, ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàøèì îáúÿñíåíèåì ôàêòà èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ àìåðèêàíöàìè áåíçèíîâûõ äâèãàòåëåé íà ñâîèõ òàíêàõ. ( ×òî êàñàåòñÿ íåìöåâ, òóò áåç âîïðîñîâ – Âàøå îáúÿñíåíèå èñ÷åðïûâàþùå.) Íî, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ àìåðèêàíöåâ, òî òóò ôàêòîð ïîëíîé îáåñïå÷åííîñòè áåíçèíîì, êîíå÷íî èìååò ìåñòî áûòü, íî îí, âñ¸-òàêè âòîðè÷åí. Ìû çàáûâàåì, î òîì, ÷òî Àìåðèêà íà÷àëà ðàçâîðà÷èâàòü ñâîè ÂÑ àæ â 1940 ãîäó. Äî ýòîãî îíè èìåëè ÀÆ ÄÅÂßÒÜ ïåõîòíûõ äèâèçèé, è ÀÆ ÒÐÈÑÒÀ ÄÂÀÄÖÀÒÜ ØÒÓÊ òàíêîâ!!!!!! (Ïðè÷¸ì ïîõîæè ýòè ìàøèíû áûëè íà 2-õ áàøåííûé «Âèêêåðñ 6-òîííûé» è Ò-26, òîëüêî ãîíÿëè áûñòðåå ÁÒ.) Íîâûå òàíêè ïîòðåáîâàëè íîâûõ äâèãàòåëåé, à ñîçäàíèå íîâîãî äâèæêà – ïðîöåññ, óâû íåáûñòðûé. «GM» êîëîòèëàñü, ñî ñâîèì «GMC»-71, êîòîðûé, ñòàâèëñÿ íà Ì4À2, îêîëî äåñÿòè ëåò (êñòàòè, ëèöåíçèîííûå 4-õ è 6-òè öèëèíäðîâûå âåðñèè, èçâåñòíû ó íàñ, êàê ßÌÇ-204 è ßÌÇ-206). Ìû, òîæå, îòæèìàëèñü íàä òåìîé Â-2 ñ íà÷àëà òðèäöàòûõ. Ñðàâíèòå – ó íàñ, íà âñ¸ì ñðåäíåì è òÿæ¸ëîì ñòîÿë Â-2, íà ë¸ãêîì – ÃÀÇ-203; ó íåìöåâ – «Ìàéáàõ» ÍL 62 – íà «äâîéêå» è å¸ ïðîèçâîäíûõ, «Ìàéáàõ» HL 120 íà «òðîéêå», «÷åòâ¸ðêå» è èæå ñ íèìè, «Ìàéáàõ» HL 230 íà «Ïàíòåðå» è «Òèãðàõ», «Ïðàãà» ÀÑ - íà ÷åøñêèõ ìàøèíàõ. À ó àìåðèêàíöåâ? ÒÐÈ ñèëîâûõ àãðåãàòà íà ñåìåéñòâå ë¸ãêèõ ìàøèí: «Êîíòèíåíòàëü» W-670, «Ãàéáåðñîí» Ò1020 (äèçåëü), ñïàðêà «Êàäèëëàêîâ». ÏßÒÜ âàðèàíòîâ ÑÓ äëÿ ñðåäíèõ òàíêîâ: «Êîíòèíåíòàëü» R-975, ñïàðêà «GMC»-6-71, “Êðàéñëåð» WC «Ìàëòèáýíê» (êîøìàð èç ïÿòè àâòîìîáèëüíûõ äâèæêîâ), «Êàòåðïèëëåð»RD-1820 è, íàêîíåö «Ôîðä» GAA (óðåçàííàÿ äî 8-è öèëèíäðîâ âåðñèÿ «Ðîëëñ-Ðîéñ» «Ìåðëèí», åäèíñòâåííûé äâèãàòåëü, õîòü â êàêîé-òî ìåðå, ñîçäàííûé äëÿ òàíêà). Àìåðèêàíöû ïèõàëè â òàíêè âñ¸, ÷òî, âëàçèëî è äàâàëî ìîùíîñòü!!!
ß óæå ïèñàë, ÷òî äëÿ òàíêèñòîâ âàæíåå, íå êàêîå òîïëèâî æð¸ò èõ òàíê, à ãäå ðàçìåùåíû áàêè? Íåìåöêèå òàíêè, ñ áàêàìè, âûíåñåííûìè, íàçàä çà áðîíåïåðåãîðîäêè, â ñìûñëå ïîæàðîîïàñíîñòè äëÿ ýêèïàæà áûëè áîëåå áåçîïàñíû, ÷åì Ò-34, ãäå òàíêèñòû øëè â áîé, â ïðÿìîì ñìûñëå ñëîâà, â îêðóæåíèè èç áàêîâ.
#4

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 22 2008 14:44:58
Óâàæàåìûé V_P. ß, íå ñîâñåì, ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàøèì îáúÿñíåíèåì ôàêòà èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ àìåðèêàíöàìè áåíçèíîâûõ äâèãàòåëåé íà ñâîèõ òàíêàõ. ( ×òî êàñàåòñÿ íåìöåâ, òóò áåç âîïðîñîâ – Âàøå îáúÿñíåíèå èñ÷åðïûâàþùå.) Íî, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ àìåðèêàíöåâ, òî òóò ôàêòîð ïîëíîé îáåñïå÷åííîñòè áåíçèíîì, êîíå÷íî èìååò ìåñòî áûòü, íî îí, âñ¸-òàêè âòîðè÷åí.

Âîîáùå, ðàçãîâîð ÿ âåë î íåìöàõ, ïîýòîìó ÑØÀ óïîìÿíóòû ìíîþ ëèøü êàê ïîäòâåðæäåíèå òîãî, ÷òî â âûáîðå Ãåðìàíèè òèïà òîïëèâà äëÿ ðàçíûõ ðîäîâ âîéñê íå áûëî íè÷åãî íåîáû÷íîãî. Åñëè áû ðàçáèðàëèñü ïðè÷èíû è ïóòè àìåðèêàíñêîãî òàíêîñòðîåíèÿ, ÿ áû îòòàëèêèâàëñÿ íåìíîãî îò äðóãèõ ïðèîðèòåòîâ.

Äî ýòîãî îíè èìåëè ÀÆ ÄÅÂßÒÜ ïåõîòíûõ äèâèçèé, è ÀÆ ÒÐÈÑÒÀ ÄÂÀÄÖÀÒÜ ØÒÓÊ òàíêîâ!!!!!! (Ïðè÷¸ì ïîõîæè ýòè ìàøèíû áûëè íà 2-õ áàøåííûé «Âèêêåðñ 6-òîííûé» è Ò-26, òîëüêî ãîíÿëè áûñòðåå ÁÒ.)

Êàêèì îáðàçîì ýòî îòðàæàåòñÿ íà âûáîðå òèïà òîïëèâà? Âåäü ëþáàÿ áîåâàÿ ìàøèíà ïðîåêòèðóåòñÿ íå ïðîñòî "îò âîëüíîãî", à èñõîäÿ, â òîì ÷èñëå, è èç ðåàëüíûõ (è ïåðñïåêòèâíûõ) âîçìîæíîñòåé ñîáñòâåííîé èíäóñòðèè è äîáûâàþùèõ îòðàñëåé.

Íîâûå òàíêè ïîòðåáîâàëè íîâûõ äâèãàòåëåé, à ñîçäàíèå íîâîãî äâèæêà – ïðîöåññ, óâû íåáûñòðûé.

Îáû÷íî, íå áûñòðåå, ÷åì ñîçäàíèå ñàìîãî òàíêà

Ñðàâíèòå – ó íàñ, íà âñ¸ì ñðåäíåì è òÿæ¸ëîì ñòîÿë Â-2, íà ë¸ãêîì – ÃÀÇ-203; ó íåìöåâ – «Ìàéáàõ» ÍL 62 – íà «äâîéêå» è å¸ ïðîèçâîäíûõ, «Ìàéáàõ» HL 120 íà «òðîéêå», «÷åòâ¸ðêå» è èæå ñ íèìè, «Ìàéáàõ» HL 230 íà «Ïàíòåðå» è «Òèãðàõ», «Ïðàãà» ÀÑ - íà ÷åøñêèõ ìàøèíàõ. À ó àìåðèêàíöåâ? ÒÐÈ ñèëîâûõ àãðåãàòà íà ñåìåéñòâå ë¸ãêèõ ìàøèí: «Êîíòèíåíòàëü» W-670, «Ãàéáåðñîí» Ò1020 (äèçåëü), ñïàðêà «Êàäèëëàêîâ». ÏßÒÜ âàðèàíòîâ ÑÓ äëÿ ñðåäíèõ òàíêîâ: «Êîíòèíåíòàëü» R-975, ñïàðêà «GMC»-6-71, “Êðàéñëåð» WC «Ìàëòèáýíê» (êîøìàð èç ïÿòè àâòîìîáèëüíûõ äâèæêîâ), «Êàòåðïèëëåð»RD-1820 è, íàêîíåö «Ôîðä» GAA (óðåçàííàÿ äî 8-è öèëèíäðîâ âåðñèÿ «Ðîëëñ-Ðîéñ» «Ìåðëèí», åäèíñòâåííûé äâèãàòåëü, õîòü â êàêîé-òî ìåðå, ñîçäàííûé äëÿ òàíêà). Àìåðèêàíöû ïèõàëè â òàíêè âñ¸, ÷òî, âëàçèëî è äàâàëî ìîùíîñòü!!!


Ñðàâíèë. Íó è ÷òî? Ó íàñ îäèí äâèãàòåëü (â ìåëêèõ âàðèàöèÿõ) ñòàâèëñÿ íà ñðåäíèå è íà òÿæåëûå òàíêè. ×òî â ýòîì õîðîøåãî? Òîëüêî ðåìîíòîïðèãîäíîñòü è óíèôèêàöèÿ. À ÷òî ïëîõî? À òî, ÷òî äâèãàòåëü, êîòîðûé ðàçðàáàòûâàëñÿ ïîä ñðåäíèé òàíê îò áåäíîñòè ñòàâèëè è íà òÿæåëûå. Âîâñå íå ïîòîìó, ÷òî îí áûë ïðÿìî ñóïåð êàêîé êëàññíûé, à ïîòîìó, ÷òî ýòî áûëî ëó÷øåå, ÷åì ìû ðàñïîëàãàëè. Íè÷åãî èíîãî ó íàñ ïðîñòî íå áûëî. È äî êîíöà âîéíû òàê è íå ïîÿâèëîñü. ×òî òóò ñ ÷åì ñðàâíèâàòü? Àìåðèêàíöû ñòàâèëè ñâîè Êîíòèíåòàëè, íåìöû - Ìàéáàõè, ÷åõè - Ïðàãó, ìû ñâîè "âýøêè". È ÷òî? Ïðè÷åì òóò ïðèîðèòåòíûé òèï òîïëèâà? Äâèãàòåëü, åùå ðàç ïîâòîðþñü, âñåãäà ðàçðàáàòûâàåòñÿ ïîä îïðåäåëåííûé òèï òîïëèâà, íî íèêîãäà òèï òîïëèâà - ïîä äâèãàòåëü.

Àìåðèêàíöû ïèõàëè â òàíêè âñ¸, ÷òî, âëàçèëî è äàâàëî ìîùíîñòü!!!

Ìû íè÷åì îò àìåðèêàíöåâ íå îòëè÷àëèñü. Çà îäíèì ìàëåíüêèì íþàíñîì: ó íàñ âûáîð áûë êóäà ñêðîìíåå.

ß óæå ïèñàë, ÷òî äëÿ òàíêèñòîâ âàæíåå, íå êàêîå òîïëèâî æð¸ò èõ òàíê, à ãäå ðàçìåùåíû áàêè?

À ÿ âàì êàê òàíêèñò ñ áîåâûì îïûòîì îòâå÷àþ, ÷òî ìíå ïîõðåí êàê èìåííî ÿ ïîãèáíó: îò âçðûâà áîåêîìïëåêòà, ïàðîâ òîïëèâà èëè îò êóñêîâ áðîíè, êîòîðûå áðûçíóò ïðè ïðîáèòèè áðîíè âðàæåñêèì ñíàðÿäîì! Çàòî ìíå íå ïîõðåí åæåäíåâíàÿ ãîëîâíàÿ áîëü ñ äîçàïðàâêîé ìîåãî òàíêà äåôèöèòíûì òîïëèâîì. Ïî ìíå ëó÷øå èìåòü òàêîé äâèã íà òàíêå, êîòîðûé áóäåò æðàòü òîïëèâî, êîòîðîå íàéäåòñÿ íà ëþáîì ñêëàäå ÃÑÌ, à íå æäàòü, ïîêà ìîå òîïëèâî ïðèáóäåò îòêóäà-òî èç Çàäðèùåíñêà è ìîëèòüñÿ, ÷òîáû äî ýòîãî ìîìåíòà ïðîòèâíèê íå àòàêîâàë ìåíÿ íà ìîåì ó÷àñòêå, èáî ñ ïóñòûìè áàêàìè ÿ èìåþ ïî÷òè íóëåâóþ áîåãîòîâíîñòü è îòïðàâëþñü íà òîò ñâåò ãîðàçäî ðàíüøå, ÷åì îò âçðûâà áåíçîáàêîâ. Ïîòîìó ÷òî åñëè ñíàðÿä äîáðàëñÿ äî áåíçîáàêà, òî çíà÷èò îí ÓÆÅ ïðîáèë áðîíþ è çíà÷èò ìåíÿ ÓÆÅ ïîäáèëè.
#5
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 23 2008 15:01:40
Óâàæàåìûé V_P. Âû, âèäèìî, íå ÷èòàëè ìîèõ ïðåäûäóùèõ ïîñòîâ.
Âî-ïåðâûõ, ÿ ïîëíîñòüþ ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàøèì îáîñíîâàíèåì âûáîðà Ãåðìàíèåé, â êà÷åñòâå îñíîâíîãî òîïëèâà äëÿ âåðìàõòà, ñèíòåòè÷åñêîãî áåíçèíà. Ïðîñòî, äëÿ àìåðèêàíöåâ, íå ìåíåå âàæíûì ôàêòîðîì, ÷åì, íàëàæåííîå, â ëþáûõ íåîáõîäèìûõ êîëè÷åñòâàõ, ïðîèçâîäñòâî áåíçèíà, áûë ôàêòîð âðåìåíè! Âîò ê ÷åìó ÿ ïîìÿíóë àæ 9 ÏÄ è àæ 320 øò. òàíêîâ. Âñïîìíèòå, ñêîëüêî èõ áûëî ó Àìåðèêè â 1945? À âðåìåíè íà ñîçäàíèå äîâåä¸ííîãî äâèæêà òðåáóåòñÿ ãîðàçäî áîëüøå, ÷åì íà ñîçäàíèå òàíêà. Â-2 íà÷àëè ïðîåêòèðîâàòü â èþëå 1931ã, à ïåðâûå ñåðèéíûå äâèæêè ïîÿâèëèñü â êîíöå 39 íà÷àëå 40 ãîäà. Ò-34 íà÷àëè ïðîåêòèðîâàòü â 38, à â êîíöå 40 óæå áûëè ïåðâûå ñåðèéíûå ìàøèíû, â ñêîáêàõ – âñïîìíèòå î÷åíü íåë¸ãêóþ ñóäüáó Ò-64 è ÃÒÄ-5.
Ìû, Ãåðìàíèÿ è ßïîíèÿ ñòàâèëè íà òàíêè ÑÏÅÖÈÀËÈÇÈÐÎÂÀÍÍÛÅ (ïîòîìó, ÷òî óñïåëè èõ ñîçäàòü) äâèæêè, à àìåðèêàíñêèå, äà è àíãëèéñêèå, òàíêîâûå äâèæêè ïðîèñõîäÿò îò àâèàöèîííûõ ëèáî àâòîìîáèëüíûõ, ÷òî, íåñîìíåííî, ñïîñîáñòâîâàëî áûñòðîìó ðàçâ¸ðòûâàíèþ ïðîèçâîäñòâà â óñëîâèÿõ àâðàëà, à äëÿ àìåðèêàíöåâ, è, ïðàêòè÷åñêè ñ íóëÿ.
 êà÷åñòâå ïðèìåðà ïîäãîíêè òàíêîâîãî äâèãàòåëÿ ïîä òîïëèâíûé áàëàíñ, ëó÷øå áûëî ïðèâåñòè â ïðèìåð ßïîíèþ (ïðàâäà, ñ îáðàòíûì çíàêîì). Äëÿ ÿïîíöåâ ïðèîðèòåòîì, áûëà ýêîíîìèÿ áåíçèíà, è îíè óæå â 31-32ãã ïåðåâîäÿò ñâîè òàíêè íà äèçåëü (â, òîì ÷èñëå è çàìåíÿÿ, ïðè ðåìîíòå áåíçèíîâûå äâèæêè íà äèçåëÿ).
ß óæå íàïèñàë íåñêîëüêî ïîñòîâ íà ýòó òåìó íåñêîëüêî ðàíüøå. Íî, ñåé÷àñ îíè íà áýêàïå ó ðanzerknacherà, ïîýòîìó, îäèí èç íèõ, ñ ðàçðåøåíèÿ ìîäåðàòîðà, ïîâòîðþ. Äóìàþ Âàì ýòè öèôðû áóäóò èíòåðåñíû.

Åù¸ îäíà êëèçìà Ðåçóíó. ß ðàçûñêàë, â ñâîåé áèáëèîòåêå, êíèãó «Ïðîèãðàííûå ñðàæåíèÿ» (ñåðèÿ «âîåííî-èñòîðè÷åñêàÿ áèáëèîòåêà» èçä. ÀÑÒ 2002, â íåé, ïîä îäíîé îáëîæêîé, èçäàíû: èññëåäîâàíèå À. Ôèëèïïè «Ïðèïÿòñêàÿ ïðîáëåìà», ïîñâÿù¸ííàÿ ïëàíèðîâàíèþ «Áàðáàðîññû» è áîÿì äî ïðîõîæäåíèÿ âåðìàõòîì Ïðèïÿòñêèõ áîëîò; âòîðàÿ âåùü – ìåìóàðû Ã. Ôðèñíåðà «Ïðîèãðàííûå ñðàæåíèÿ», ïîñâÿù¸ííûå âûõîäó Ðóìûíèè èç âîéíû. Äëÿ äèñêóññèè áîëåå èíòåðåñíà ïåðâàÿ ðàáîòà. Íàïèñàííàÿ â 1956 ãîäó, â ðàçãàð «õîëîäíîé âîéíû», îíà íå ñîäåðæèò íè ìàëåéøåãî íàì¸êà íà «ïðåâåíòèâíûé óäàð»!!! Ìîæåò ïîòîìó, ÷òî àâòîð öåíèò ñâî¸ äîáðîå èìÿ?! Êñòàòè, êîììåíòàðèè ê íåé, òîæå âåñüìà ïîëåçíû.
Âî âòîðîé ðàáîòå, ñàìîå èíòåðåñíîå, â ñâåòå äèñêóññèè, ýòî, ñîäåðæàùàÿñÿ â ïðèëîæåíèè, òàáëèöà äîáû÷è íåôòè â Ðóìûíèè. Ïðèâîæó å¸ öåëèêîì.
Äàííûå â ìëí. ò.
Ãîä Îáùàÿ äîáû÷à Îáùèé ýêñïîðò Ýêñïîðò â Ãåðìàíèþ
1941 5,60 4,07 2,71
1942 5,66 3,37 2,16
1943 5,27 3,16 2,51
Ïðèì. Â 1940ã – ïîñòàâêè 1,26 ìëí.ò.
 ñâåòå ïðîèçâîäñòâà â Ãåðìàíèè îãðîìíîãî (äî 5 ìëí.ò. â ãîä) êîëè÷åñòâà ñèíòåòèêè è, çàõâà÷åííûõ âî Ôðàíöèè 3-õ ìëí.ò. íåôòåïðîäóêòîâ, Ïëîåøòè, ñóùåñòâåííî, íî íå êðèòè÷íî, îñîáåííî, â ïåðñïåêòèâå «áëèöêðèãà».
 ñêîáêàõ, ÿ ïðåäïî÷èòàþ áåíçèíîâûé òàíê, ñ áàêàìè çà áðîíåïåðåãîðîäêîé, äèçåëüíîìó ñ áàêàìè â áîåâîì îòäåëåíèè. Êñòàòè Ò-34 çàãîðàëñÿ â 23% ïîðàæåíèé, à Ò-70 â 19%?!
#6

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 23 2008 16:15:00
Âàøè ïðåäûäóùèå ïîñòû ÿ äåéñòâèòåëüíî íå ÷èòàë, íî îòâå÷àë ÿ âàì òîëüêî íà òî, ÷òî ïðî÷èòàë. ß åùå ðàç ïîâòîðÿþ âàì, ÷òî â ñòàòüå ó ìåíÿ íå áûëî öåëè îáúÿñíÿòü ïðè÷èíû è ïóòè àìåðèêàíñêîãî òàíêîñòðîåíèÿ. Ïîýòîìó ìíå íå áûëî íåîáõîäèìîñòè ïåðå÷èñëÿòü âñå èõ, â òîì ÷èñëå îáúÿñíÿòü ïðè÷èíû áûñòðîãî ðàçâèòèÿ. ß ëèøü ïðèâåë òî, ÷òî ïîäêðåïëÿëî ìîé òåçèñ î "ãåðìàíñêîì ïóòè", íå âäàâàÿñü â îòâëå÷åííûå äåáðè.

Ìû, Ãåðìàíèÿ è ßïîíèÿ ñòàâèëè íà òàíêè ÑÏÅÖÈÀËÈÇÈÐÎÂÀÍÍÛÅ (ïîòîìó, ÷òî óñïåëè èõ ñîçäàòü) äâèæêè, à àìåðèêàíñêèå, äà è àíãëèéñêèå, òàíêîâûå äâèæêè ïðîèñõîäÿò îò àâèàöèîííûõ ëèáî àâòîìîáèëüíûõ, ÷òî, íåñîìíåííî, ñïîñîáñòâîâàëî áûñòðîìó ðàçâ¸ðòûâàíèþ ïðîèçâîäñòâà â óñëîâèÿõ àâðàëà, à äëÿ àìåðèêàíöåâ, è, ïðàêòè÷åñêè ñ íóëÿ.


Åñëè óæ ïî ãàìáóðãñêîìó ñ÷åòó, òî ñîâåòñêèé Â-2 òîæå íà÷èíàåò ñâîþ ðîäîñëîâíóþ èç àâèàöèîííûõ ÀÍ-1 è ÀÄ-1. Íî ÿ íå î÷åíü ïîíèìàþ, ïî÷åìó âû òàê ïðèëåïèëèñü ê òîìó, ÷òî ó àìåðîâ ñòîÿëè àâèàöèîííûå äâèæêè íà òàíêàõ? ×òî ýòî ìåíÿåò? òî, ÷òî âûáîð àìåðèàêöåâ îáóñëàâëèâàëñÿ òåì, ÷òî îíè íè÷åãî íå ïðîåêòèðîâàëè ñïåöèàëüíî, à ïðîñòî âòûêàëè â òàíêè òî, ÷òî ïîäâîðà÷èâàëîñü ïîä ðóêó? Íó ýòî íå ïðàâèëî. Òî åñòü, âòûêàëè, äà, íî ýòî áûë èõ âûáîð. Îíè ïîñ÷èòàëè, ÷òî ïîñêîëüêó áåíçèíà ó íèõ çàâàëèñü, òî ìîæíî îñîáî íå íàïðÿãàòüñÿ íà ïåðâûõ ïîðàõ, à âîòêíóòü íà òàíêè ãîòîâûå äâèæêè. Îäíàêî îíè òàê ïîñ÷èòàëè èìåííî ïîòîìó, ÷òî çàïàñû áåíçèíà è ïðîèçâîäñòâåííûå ìîùíîñòè ïîçâîëÿëè èì òàêîå ðåøåíèå. À âîâñå íå íàîáîðîò.

ß ðàçûñêàë, â ñâîåé áèáëèîòåêå, êíèãó «Ïðîèãðàííûå ñðàæåíèÿ» (ñåðèÿ «âîåííî-èñòîðè÷åñêàÿ áèáëèîòåêà» èçä. ÀÑÒ 2002, â íåé, ïîä îäíîé îáëîæêîé, èçäàíû: èññëåäîâàíèå À. Ôèëèïïè «Ïðèïÿòñêàÿ ïðîáëåìà», ïîñâÿù¸ííàÿ ïëàíèðîâàíèþ «Áàðáàðîññû» è áîÿì äî ïðîõîæäåíèÿ âåðìàõòîì Ïðèïÿòñêèõ áîëîò; âòîðàÿ âåùü – ìåìóàðû Ã. Ôðèñíåðà «Ïðîèãðàííûå ñðàæåíèÿ», ïîñâÿù¸ííûå âûõîäó Ðóìûíèè èç âîéíû.

Èññëåäîâàíèå Ôèëèïïè ÿ íå ÷èòàë, à âîò ìåìóàðû Ôðèñíåðà ó ìåíÿ åñòü íüþ-éîðêñêîãî èçäàíèÿ 1960-õ ãîäîâ. ß òîëüêî íå ïîíèìàþ, ãäå òàì ó Ôðèñíåðà ÷òî ïðî íåôòü?

Âî âòîðîé ðàáîòå, ñàìîå èíòåðåñíîå, â ñâåòå äèñêóññèè, ýòî, ñîäåðæàùàÿñÿ â ïðèëîæåíèè, òàáëèöà äîáû÷è íåôòè â Ðóìûíèè. Ïðèâîæó å¸ öåëèêîì.
Äàííûå â ìëí. ò.


Ãäå-òî ÿ óæå âèäåë ýòè öèôèðè!
#7
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 24 2008 14:39:24
V_P. Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. Ñîãëàñåí, ìî¸ ìíåíèå, î äâèæêàõ àìåðèêàíöåâ, ïåðåðîñëî, â ñîâåðøåíî íåíóæíóþ äèñêóññèþ. Çàâÿçûâàþ.
Íàñ÷¸ò âòîðîãî Âàøåãî çàìå÷àíèÿ, î Ôðèñíåðå. Åñòåñòâåííî, ÷òî â ÍÜÞ-ÉÎÐÊÑÊÎÌ èçäàíèè Âû, î íåôòè íè÷åãî íå íàéä¸òå. ß, âåäü óêàçûâàë, ÷òî ðå÷ü èä¸ò î ïðèëîæåíèè ê êîíêðåòíîìó èçäàíèþ.  äàííîì ñëó÷àå, ýòî ñòàòüÿ Â. Ãîí÷àðîâà «Êàïèòóëÿöèÿ Ðóìûíèè», à çàïèñêè Ôðèñíåðà, ýòî îáû÷íûå «ìåìóàðû ñàìîîïðàâäàíèÿ».  ñâåòå «ïðèãâîæäåíèÿ ê ïîçîðíîìó ñòîëáó» äåçåðòèðà Ðåçóíà, ãëàâíîé, â ýòîé êíèãå, ÿâëÿåòñÿ ðàáîòà Ôèëèïïè, â êîòîðîé îí èññëåäóåò ïëàíèðîâàíèå è õîä «Áàðáàðîññû», è èìåííî ýòî èçäàíèå ñíàáæåíî íåïëîõèìè êîììåíòàðèÿìè è ñïðàâî÷íûì àïïàðàòîì.  îáùåì, ðåêîìåíäóþ.
Òàê æå, ðåêîìåíäóþ æóðíàë «Àâèàöèÿ è êîñìîíàâòèêà» 2002ã ¹5-6, ãäå ïîäðîáíî îñâåùåíà èñòîðèÿ ñîçäàíèÿ è áîåâîé ïóòü Ïå-8. Íàïèñàííîå òàì, ñîâåðøåííî íå âÿæåòñÿ ñ óìîçðåíèÿìè Ðåçóíà.
#8

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 26 2008 06:10:57
Ãîí÷àðîâà ÿ íå ÷èòàë, à âîò ñòàòüþ â ÀèÊ ÷èòàë. Òîëüêî ñëèøêîì ïîçäíî, ÷åðåç 2 ãîäà ïîñëå íàïèñàíèÿ ñâîåé ñòàòüè, ïîýòîìó ìàòåðèàëû èç ÀèÊ â íåå íå âîøëè, à ïåðåïèñûâàòü çàäíèì ÷èñëîì áûëî ëåíü. Äà è ñìûñëà îñîáîãî óæå â òàêèõ ñòàòüÿõ, êàê ìîÿ, óæå òîæå íåò. Òâîð÷åñòâî Ðåçóíà ïðîñòî ïðîèãíîðèðîâàíî ó÷åíûìè-èñòîðèêàìè è èññëåäîâàòåëÿìè âñåõ ñòðàí ìèðà, âêëþ÷àÿ Âåëèêîáðèòàíèþ è Ãåðìàíèþ. Îíè ïîñ÷èòàëè íèæå ñâîåãî äîñòîèíñòâà ñïîðèòü ñ áóëüâàðíûì ðîìàí÷èêîì-àëüòåðíàòèâêîé ðóññêîãî ïåðåáåæ÷èêà. ß òîæå ïðèøåë ê ýòîìó âûâîäó, ïîýòîìó ïðåêðàòèë âñÿêèå ïåðåóáåæäåíèÿ îòäåëüíûõ òîâàðèùåé, ðàçìàõèâàþùèõ ýòèìè êíèæóëüêàìè è ïûòàþùèõñÿ ÷òî-òî äîêàçàòü è êîãî-òî "ðàçîáëà÷èòü". Åñòü çàìå÷àòåëüíûé ñàéò èññëåäîâàòåëÿ-äåìàãîãà Çàêîðåöêîãî, ãäå òàêàÿ ìàêóëàòóðà áåðåæíî êîëëåêöèîíèðóåòñÿ (åñòü ñâåäåíèÿ, ÷òî Çàêîðåöêèé óæå íà÷àë èçäàâàòüñÿ â ðóëîíàõ) Âîò èì âñåì íà òîò ñàéò. Ññûëêó ïóáëèêîâàòü íå áóäó, êîìó íàäî - íàéäåò ÷åðåç ßíäåêñ.
#9
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jun 27 2008 15:27:40
V_P. Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. ß íå ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàìè, ÷òî ïîäîáíûå ñòàòüè, íå èìåþò îñîáîãî ñìûñëà. Âû, ñàìè, ïèøåòå, ÷òî ïåðâîå çíàêîìñòâî ñ Ðåçóíîì, â âîçðàñòå 16 ëåò, îêàçàëî íà Âàñ âåñüìà ñèëüíûé ýôôåêò. Äîëæåí ïðèçíàòüñÿ, ÷òî êîãäà ÿ âïåðâûå ïîçíàêîìèëñÿ ñ «Ëåäîêîëîì», à áûë ÿ, â ýòî âðåìÿ âäâîå ñòàðøå Âàñ, òî îí âí¸ñ îïðåäåë¸ííîå ñìóùåíèå â ìîþ äóøó. Áûëî ýòî â íà÷àëå 90-õ âî âðåìåíà «øàòàíèé è ðàçîáëà÷åíèé». «Âíîñèë ñìóùåíèå» îí è â äóøè ìîèõ ñîñëóæèâöåâ – ñàì íàáëþäàë. Óâû! È, åñëè ÿ ðàçîáðàëñÿ â òîì, ÷òî, èç ñåáÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿåò Ðåçóí, òî äëÿ ìåíÿ, ýòî ïîòðåáîâàëî îïðåäåë¸ííûõ óñèëèé, õîòÿ áû, ïî ïîèñêó ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé èíôîðìàöèè, à âîò ïðèëîæèò ëè ïîäîáíûå óñèëèÿ èìÿðåê 92 ãîäà ðîæäåíèÿ?! Ñàìè âåäü ïèøåòå, ÷òî Ðåçóí – ïðåêðàñíûé ïóáëèöèñò! Âû çíàêîìèëèñü ñ Ðåçóíîì â «ñàìèçäàòîâñêîì» âàðèàíòå, à ñ êîíöà 80-õ è ïî íàñòîÿùåå âðåìÿ îí ïðèñóòñòâóåò íà ïîëêàõ êíèæíûõ ìàãàçèíîâ, îò ïîêåòáóêîâ äî, ñ÷èòàé ÷òî, ïîäàðî÷íûõ èçäàíèé!!! Çíà÷èò, ñïðîñ åñòü!!! Äàæå âûäåëÿþò îòäåëüíûå ïîëêè, ñàì íàáëþäàë, íå äàëåå êàê ñåãîäíÿ!!! Óâàæàþùèå ñåáÿ ó÷¸íûå, äåéñòâèòåëüíî ïðîèãíîðèðîâàëè Ðåçóíà, íî âåäü ïèøåò îí íå äëÿ íèõ! Åãî öåëü òå, äëÿ êîãî IIWW, óâû óæå «ïëþñêâàìïåðôåêòóì», è ó êîãî íåò íåïðèÿòèÿ, ïîäîáíûõ ëè÷íîñòåé è èäåé, íà óðîâíå ðåôëåêñà. Çà ñâîèõ äåòåé ÿ ñïîêîåí, ó íèõ õâàòèò óìà óçíàòü ìîå ìíåíèå, è õâàòèò äîâåðèÿ ê íåìó, äàæå, åñëè îíî áóäåò ñîñòîÿòü òîëüêî èç «èêñà, èãðåêà è åù¸ ÷åãî-òî èç âûñøåé ìàòåìàòèêè». Íî âåäü òàê óâû íå ó âñåõ, à ñîâåòñêàÿ âëàñòü ïðèó÷èëà ëþäåé ê îäíîìó íåõèòðîìó ñîîáðàæåíèþ – åñëè êàêîå-òî ÿâëåíèå ìàòåðÿò (îñîáåííî ñ ïåðåõîäîì íà ëè÷íîñòè) èëè çàìàë÷èâàþò òî «ìàáóòü â öüîìó ùîñü å». Ýòî ó ÿïîíöåâ äîñòàòî÷íî ðåñêðèïòà èìïåðàòîðà, î òîì ÷òî «èìÿðåê ñ÷èòàòü êîçëîì», è íàöèÿ ñ÷èòàåò èìÿðåê êîçëîì, à ó íàñ ïîíîñèìûé âëàñòüþ ìîæåò ðàññ÷èòûâàòü íà òîëèêó ñî÷óâñòâèÿ, íåçàâèñèìî îò òîãî çàñëóæèâàåò îí åãî èëè íåò.  ñâåòå ýòîãî Ðåçóíà íàäî ðàçäåëûâàòü, ìàêñèìàëüíî àðãóìåíòèðîâàíî, è áåç ìàòà.
ß, äóìàþ, ÷òî ñâåòå ýòîãî, Âàì Âàëåðèé, ñòîèëî áû ïåðåïèñàòü ñòàòüþ, è àêòèâèçèðîâàòü äèñêóññèþ.  êà÷åñòâå ìàòåðèàëà äëÿ äîðàáîòêè ïðåäëàãàþ ñòàòüþ Ñ. À. Ðÿáóøåâà «Ëîãèêà è «Ëåäîêîë» (îíà åñòü ó ìåíÿ íà äèñêå). Êðîìå òîãî ðèñêíó äîáàâèòü âûäåðæêó èç ñòàðîãî ïîñòà:
Íàñ÷¸ò ñàìîë¸òà «Èâàíîâ». Íà÷í¸ì ñ òîãî, ÷òî Ðåçóí íåãðàìîòíî ñðàâíèâàåò ÃÎÐÈÇÎÍÒÀËÜÍÛÉ áîìáàðäèðîâùèê ÑÓ-2, ñ ÏÈÊÈÐÓÞÙÈÌÈ J-87 «Øòóêà» è D3A1 «Âýë» «òèï 99».
 30-å ãîäû ñóùåñòâîâàëà êîíöåïöèÿ îäíîìîòîðíîãî 2-3-ìåñòíîãî áîìáàðäèðîâùèêà. Ïðè÷èíîé, âåðîÿòíåå âñåãî, áûëà îòíîñèòåëüíàÿ äåøåâèçíà ïîäîáíîãî ñàìîë¸òà. Ó íàñ, êðîìå ÑÓ-2 áûë åù¸ è Ð-10, ó ïîëÿêîâ – PZL-24 «Êàðàñü» è PZL-46 «Ñîì», ó ÿïîíöåâ – ïàëóáíûé B5N2 «Êåéò» «òèï 97», ó àìåðèêàíöåâ – ñåìåéñòâî Íîðòðîï «Ãàììà», ó èòàëüÿíöåâ «Áðåäà. Âà.65», ó ØÂÅÄΠ- SAAB-17! Êñòàòè åãî õàðàêòåðèñòèêè – îäèí â îäèí ÑÓ-2. Íà ñóøå, äàííàÿ, êîíöåïöèÿ ÍÅ ÂÛÄÅÐÆÀËÀ ïðîâåðêè áîåì – âîò ïî÷åìó ÑÓ-2 ñîø¸ë ñî ñöåíû.
Íàñ÷¸ò ñíàðÿäîâ íà ãðóíòå. Ñàì ëè÷íî, íà ïðîòÿæåíèè ìíîãèõ ëåò, íàáëþäàë øòàáåëü ÿùèêîâ ñî ñíàðÿäàìè, êàæäûé ðàç, êàê îòïðàâëÿëñÿ èç ñâîåãî äîìà â ñ. Óþòíîå íà àâòîáóñå, â Åâïàòîðèþ!!!!
Ñ óâàæåíèåì.
#10
taratuta
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 06 2008 16:45:14
"Íàïðèìåð, ñîãëàñíî ñïðàâêè îò 20-ãî èþëÿ 1941 ãîäà î ñîñòîÿíèè 27-é àðìèè Ñåâåðî-Çàïàäíîãî ôðîíòà íàèáîëåå óêîìïëåêòîâàííîé àðòèëëåðèåé ñ÷èòàëàñü 5-ÿ ñòðåëêîâàÿ äèâèçèÿ, â êîòîðîé èìåëîñü äâå 45-ìì ïóøêè è îäèíàäöàòü 76-ìì ïóøåê. Òî åñòü, âñåãî òðèíàäöàòü ïóøåê íà âñþ äèâèçèþ!"

Äàâàéòå ðàçáåð¸ìñÿ. Êåì è ñðåäè êîãî ýòà äèâèçèÿ ñ÷èòàëàñü ñàìîé óêîìïëåêòîâàííîé? Ïî÷åìó ïðèâîäÿòñÿ äàííûå íà 20.07.41? Ê ýòîìó ìîìåíòó ìíîãèå ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ áûëè ðàçãðîìëåíû. Ñðåäè íèõ ýòà äèâèçèÿ ñàìàÿ óêîìïëåêòîâàííàÿ? Âîçìîæíî, íó è ÷òî? ×òî äîêàçûâàþò ýòè äàííûå?
Ê âåñíå 1941 ãîäà â ñîñòàâå ñòðåëêîâîé äèâèçèè èìåëèñü àðòèëëåðèéñêèé è ãàóáè÷íûé ïîëê è îòäåëüíûé àðòèëëåðèéñêèé äèâèçèîí ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ îðóäèé, â ñîñòàâå ñòðåëêîâîãî ïîëêà àðòèëëåðèéñêàÿ áàòàðåÿ è àðòèëëåðèéñêàÿ áàòàðåÿ ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîé àðòèëëåðèè.  êàæäîì áàòàëüîíå âçâîä ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîé àðòèëëåðèè, ÷èñëî ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ îðóäèé âîçðîñëî äî 54, êðîìå ýòîãî äëÿ áîðüáû ñ òàíêàìè ìîãëè áûòü ïðèâëå÷åíû 34 ïîëêîâûõ è äèâèçèîííûõ 76-ìì ïóøåê. Îñíîâíûì ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûì îðóäèåì â âîéñêàõ áûëà 45-ìì ïðîòèâîòàíêîâàÿ ïóøêà îáð. 1937 ã, â ÐÊÊÀ èõ íàñ÷èòûâàëîñü îêîëî 15000. Ýòî ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîå îðóäèå íà äàëüíîñòè äî 500 ìåòðîâ è ïðè óãëå âñòðå÷è ñíàðÿäà ñ öåëüþ 0 ãðàäóñîâ ïðîáèâàëà áðîíþ íåìåöêèõ òàíêîâ T-I, T-II, T-III, à òàêæå áîðòîâóþ áðîíþ ñðåäíåãî òàíêà T-IV. Ïðèâëåêàåìûå ê ñòðåëüáå ïðÿìîé íàâîäêîé 76-ìì ïîëêîâàÿ ïóøêà ïðîáèâàëà áîðòîâóþ áðîíþ ëåãêèõ è ñðåäíèõ òàíêîâ.
#19

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 06 2008 20:50:34
V_P. Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. ß íå ñîãëàñåí ñ Âàìè, ÷òî ïîäîáíûå ñòàòüè, íå èìåþò îñîáîãî ñìûñëà. Âû, ñàìè, ïèøåòå, ÷òî ïåðâîå çíàêîìñòâî ñ Ðåçóíîì, â âîçðàñòå 16 ëåò, îêàçàëî íà Âàñ âåñüìà ñèëüíûé ýôôåêò. Äîëæåí ïðèçíàòüñÿ, ÷òî êîãäà ÿ âïåðâûå ïîçíàêîìèëñÿ ñ «Ëåäîêîëîì», à áûë ÿ, â ýòî âðåìÿ âäâîå ñòàðøå Âàñ, òî îí âí¸ñ îïðåäåë¸ííîå ñìóùåíèå â ìîþ äóøó. Áûëî ýòî â íà÷àëå 90-õ âî âðåìåíà «øàòàíèé è ðàçîáëà÷åíèé». «Âíîñèë ñìóùåíèå» îí è â äóøè ìîèõ ñîñëóæèâöåâ – ñàì íàáëþäàë. Óâû! È, åñëè ÿ ðàçîáðàëñÿ â òîì, ÷òî, èç ñåáÿ ïðåäñòàâëÿåò Ðåçóí, òî äëÿ ìåíÿ, ýòî ïîòðåáîâàëî îïðåäåë¸ííûõ óñèëèé, õîòÿ áû, ïî ïîèñêó ñîîòâåòñòâóþùåé èíôîðìàöèè, à âîò ïðèëîæèò ëè ïîäîáíûå óñèëèÿ èìÿðåê 92 ãîäà ðîæäåíèÿ?!

Íó è ÷òî èç ýòîãî? ß åùå ðàç ãîâîðþ, åñòü òàêîé æàíð: èñòîðè÷åñêàÿ àëüòåðíàòèâà. Ðàçîáëà÷àòü åå áåññìûñëåííî, êàê è ïèñàòü ðàçîáëà÷åíèå íà êàêóþ-íèáóäü êíèæêó â æàíðå ôýíòåçè. Ýòî áûëà áû áîðüáà ñ âåòðÿíûìè ìåëüíèöàìè. Åñëè ÷åëîâåê èíòåðåñóåòñÿ èñòîðèåé è ãîòîâ ÷èòàòü ÷òî-òî åùå, êðîìå Ðåçóíà, òî îí ïðåêðàñíî âî âñåì ðàçáåðåòñÿ è áåç òàêèõ âîò ñòàòåé, êàê ìîÿ. Ïî ýòîìó ïóòè ïîøëè, â òîì ÷èñëå, è âû. È ñàìè çàìå÷àòåëüíî âî âñåì ðàçîáðàëèñü áåç ìîåé ïîìîùè. Åñëè æå ÷åëîâåê â èñòîðèè "êàçóàë" (casual - ñëó÷àéíûé), òî åìó íå èíòåðåñíî áóäåò ÷èòàòü íè ìîþ ñòàòüþ, íè êàêèå-òî èíûå ñåðüåçíûå èññëåäîâàíèÿ. Åìó èíòåðåñíà àëüòåðíàòèâêà èìåííî ñâîèì áóëüâàðíûì ëåãêîìûñëèåì, ïîäà÷åé æàðåííûõ ôàêòîâ. Îäèí ìîé çíàêîìûé îäíàæäû ïðÿìî òàê è îòëèë: "ÿ ÷èòàþ æåëòóþ ïðåññó, ïîòîìó ÷òî åå ÷èòàòü ëåãêî è ïðèÿòíî".

ó ÿïîíöåâ äîñòàòî÷íî ðåñêðèïòà èìïåðàòîðà, î òîì ÷òî «èìÿðåê ñ÷èòàòü êîçëîì», è íàöèÿ ñ÷èòàåò èìÿðåê êîçëîì, à ó íàñ ïîíîñèìûé âëàñòüþ ìîæåò ðàññ÷èòûâàòü íà òîëèêó ñî÷óâñòâèÿ, íåçàâèñèìî îò òîãî çàñëóæèâàåò îí åãî èëè íåò.

Íà Ðóñè âñåãäà ê þðîäèâûì áûëî îñîáåííî òðîãàòåëüíîå îòíîøåíèå. Íàì î÷åíü íðàâÿòñÿ òàêèå "ìó÷åííèêè" è "êîçëû îòïóùåíèÿ", âñÿêèå ðåçóíû, ñîëæíèöûíû è ïðî÷àÿ.

ß, äóìàþ, ÷òî ñâåòå ýòîãî, Âàì Âàëåðèé, ñòîèëî áû ïåðåïèñàòü ñòàòüþ, è àêòèâèçèðîâàòü äèñêóññèþ.

Ñòàòüþ ÿ óæ òî÷íî íå áóäó ïåðåïèñûâàòü. Óæå ïî îçâó÷åííûì ìíîþ ïðè÷èíàì + ëåíü. Äèñêóññèþ âàì òóò íèêòî íå çàïðåùàåò, íàîáîðîò, äàæå ïîñòàðàëèñü óëó÷øèòü óñëîâèÿ, ñîâìåñòèâ ñèñòåìó êîììåíòèðîâàíèÿ ñ ôîðóìîì è èíòåãðèðîâàâ âñ¸ ýòî â ñàéò. Òàê ÷òî - âýëêàì!

 êà÷åñòâå ìàòåðèàëà äëÿ äîðàáîòêè ïðåäëàãàþ ñòàòüþ Ñ. À. Ðÿáóøåâà «Ëîãèêà è «Ëåäîêîë» (îíà åñòü ó ìåíÿ íà äèñêå).

Òåêñò êíèãè Ðÿáóøåâà ó ìåíÿ äîëæåí äî ñèõ ïîð ëåæàòü ãäå-òî â ñòàðûõ áýêàïàõ, ïîñêîëüêó â ñâîå âðåìÿ îí ìíå åå ïðèñûëàë äëÿ ïóáëèêàöèè íà ýòîì ñàéòå. Ïðè âñåì óâàæåíèè ê àâòîðó, åãî êíèãà ãðåøèëà íåèñ÷èñëèìûì êîëè÷åñòâîì íåòî÷íîñòåé, íàòÿæåê è îøèáîê, ÿ íà÷àë áûëî åå ïðàâèòü, ïîòîì ìíå ýòî íàäîåëî, èáî âûëèëîñü ýòî ïðàêòè÷åñêè â ïåðåïèñûâàíèå çàíîâî âñåãî òåêñòà, à ïîòîì Ðÿáóøåâ ñàì íàïèñàë ìíå ñ ïðîñüáîé íå ïóáëèêîâàòü åå, ïîñêîëüêó êíèãà ïåðåñòàëà ñîîòâåòñòâîâàòü åãî ìîðàëüíûì è ðåëèãèîçíûì óáåæäåíèÿì (ìîë, íå ïî-õðèñòèàíñêè òàê óíèæàòü ÷åëîâåêà, äàæå åñëè îí - ðåçóí). Òàê ÷òî ýòó êíèãó ëó÷øå îñòàâèòü.
#20

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 06 2008 21:23:57
taratuta ïèñàë(à):

Äàâàéòå ðàçáåð¸ìñÿ. Êåì è ñðåäè êîãî ýòà äèâèçèÿ ñ÷èòàëàñü ñàìîé óêîìïëåêòîâàííîé?

×èòàéòå äîêëàä íàêðîìàòà ãîñêîíòðîëÿ îò 20.07.41 "Î ðåçóëüòàòàõ ïðîâåðêè ðàáîòû òûëà 27-é À ÑÇÔ". Èëè ÿ âàì äîëæåí âñå ðàñæåâàòü è â ðîò ïîëîæèòü? Õîòèòå ñïîðèòü - ïîäãîòîâüòåñü ê ñïîðó, à íå íàñêàêèâàéòå, ãðîçíî ñûïÿ âîïðîñàìè.

Ýòó ñïðàâêó ÿ âîîáùå ïðèâåë êàê ÷àñòü ïîëåìèêè ñ ãîñïîäèíîì Çàêîðåöêèì, êîòîðûé ðàççìàõèâàë åþ è îðàë, ÷òî íåìåöêèå òàíêè áûëî ïðîñòî íå÷åì ïîäáèâàòü ïîòîìó ÷òî ÑÑÑÐ - ïðåñòóïíûé ðåæèì è ãîòîâèëñÿ ê àãðåññèè ïðîòèâ Ãåðìàíèè (ëîâêî, îäíàêî, ãîòîâèëñÿ!). ß ýòèì æå "äîâîäîì" Çàêîðåöêîãî è óìûë, ñêàçàâ, ÷òî, ìóñüå, âû êàê âñåãäà áåçóïðå÷íû, ñèòóàöèÿ áûëà òàêîâà, ÷òî èíîãäà òàíêè áûëî äàæå íå÷åì ïîäáèâàòü, õîòÿ ïî òàáëèöàì ñ áðîíåïðîáèâàåìîñòüþ ó íàñ áûëî âðîäå âñ¸ òèï-òîï.

Ïî÷åìó ïðèâîäÿòñÿ äàííûå íà 20.07.41? Ê ýòîìó ìîìåíòó ìíîãèå ïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ áûëè ðàçãðîìëåíû.

À âû óâåðåíû, ÷òî 27-ÿ àðìèÿ áûëà "óæå ðàçãîðìëåíà"?

Ñðåäè íèõ ýòà äèâèçèÿ ñàìàÿ óêîìïëåêòîâàííàÿ?

Âîïðîñ ê ñîñòàâèòåëþ âûøåóêàçàííîãî äîêóìåíòà.

Âîçìîæíî, íó è ÷òî? ×òî äîêàçûâàþò ýòè äàííûå?

À îíè äîëæíû èìåííî äîêàçûâàòü?

Ê âåñíå 1941 ãîäà â ñîñòàâå ñòðåëêîâîé äèâèçèè èìåëèñü àðòèëëåðèéñêèé è ãàóáè÷íûé ïîëê è îòäåëüíûé àðòèëëåðèéñêèé äèâèçèîí ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ îðóäèé, â ñîñòàâå ñòðåëêîâîãî ïîëêà àðòèëëåðèéñêàÿ áàòàðåÿ è àðòèëëåðèéñêàÿ áàòàðåÿ ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîé àðòèëëåðèè.  êàæäîì áàòàëüîíå âçâîä ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîé àðòèëëåðèè, ÷èñëî ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ îðóäèé âîçðîñëî äî 54, êðîìå ýòîãî äëÿ áîðüáû ñ òàíêàìè ìîãëè áûòü ïðèâëå÷åíû 34 ïîëêîâûõ è äèâèçèîííûõ 76-ìì ïóøåê. Îñíîâíûì ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûì îðóäèåì â âîéñêàõ áûëà 45-ìì ïðîòèâîòàíêîâàÿ ïóøêà îáð. 1937 ã, â ÐÊÊÀ èõ íàñ÷èòûâàëîñü îêîëî 15000.

Âîò âû ñàìè è îòâåòèëè íà âàø âîïðîñ, ïî÷åìó ïðèâåäåíà èìåííî ýòà ñïðàâêà è èìåííî çà ýòî ÷èñëî.

Ýòî ïðîòèâîòàíêîâîå îðóäèå íà äàëüíîñòè äî 500 ìåòðîâ è ïðè óãëå âñòðå÷è ñíàðÿäà ñ öåëüþ 0 ãðàäóñîâ ïðîáèâàëà áðîíþ íåìåöêèõ òàíêîâ T-I, T-II, T-III, à òàêæå áîðòîâóþ áðîíþ ñðåäíåãî òàíêà T-IV.

Î÷åíü òåîðåòèçèðîâàíî. Ïðàêòèêà ýòîãî íå ïîäòâåðäèëà. Îáñòðåë íåìåöêèõ "òðîéêè" è "÷åòâåðêè" èç 45-ìì ïóøêè ïîêàçàë, ÷òî èõ áðîíÿ äàëåêî íå âñåãäà ïðîáèâàåòñÿ, î÷åíü ÷àñòî èìåë ìåñòî ôàêò ðàçðóøåíèÿ ÁÁ ñíàðÿäà èç-çà ïëîõîãî êà÷åñòâà ÁÁ ñíàðÿäîâ.

Ïðèâëåêàåìûå ê ñòðåëüáå ïðÿìîé íàâîäêîé 76-ìì ïîëêîâàÿ ïóøêà ïðîáèâàëà áîðòîâóþ áðîíþ ëåãêèõ è ñðåäíèõ òàíêîâ.

Îïÿòü î÷åíü òåîðåòèçèðîâàíî, íî óæå ïî äðóãèì ïðè÷èíàì. Âî ìíîãèõ ñëó÷àÿõ â ÁÊ ïîëêîâóøåê îòñóòñòâîâàëè áðîíåáîéíûå ñíàðÿäû.
#21
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 07 2008 09:18:25
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé.  ïîäòâåðæäåíèå Âàøåé ïîçèöèè.  êíèãå Ì. Ñâèðèíà «Áðîíåâîé ùèò Ñòàëèíà» Ì. «ßóçà» «Ýêñìî» 2006 ñòð. 178-182, ñîîáùàåòñÿ, ÷òî îñåíüþ 39 íàøè «ïðèõâàòèçèðîâàëè» â Ïîëüøå «äâîéêó» è «òðîéêó». Êîðïóñ «òðîéêè» ïîäâåðãëè îáñòðåëó èç 45-ìì ïóøêè îáð. 37ã ñíàðÿäàìè ÁÐ-240. Ðåçóëüòàò?  îäíîì ñëó÷àå 32-ìì áîðòîâàÿ áðîíÿ ÂÛÄÅÐÆÀËÀ ÄÂÀ ïîïàäàíèÿ ñ 400ì ïî íîðìàëè (ñíàðÿäû âûïóñêà 38ã), â äðóãîì – 400ì óãîë äî 30 ãðàä – äâå ïðîáîèíû è òðè ðèêîøåòà (ñíàðÿäû âûïóñêà 40ã). Ñíàðÿäû 38ã, åù¸ ëåòîì, áûëè ïðèçíàíû íåêîíäèöèîííûìè, íî èçúÿòèå, íà ìîìåíò èñïûòàíèé íå ñäåëàíî (à âèäèìî è ïîçæå). Êîìèññèÿ ïðèçíàëà íåìåöêóþ 32-ìì öåìåíòèðîâàííóþ áðîíþ ðàâíîïðî÷íîé 42-44-ìì ãîìîãåííîé áðîíå Èæîðñêîãî çàâîäà. Äàëüøå, ýëåìåíòàðíàÿ ïðîïîðöèÿ, è «ïîëòèííèê» ðàâåí 65-68-ìì, ÷òî äëÿ «ñîðîêàïÿòêè» áîîîëüøàÿ ïðîáëåìà! Âîîáùå, ôàêòè÷åñêàÿ áðîíåïðîáèâàåìîñòü çàâèñèò è îò êà÷åñòâà ñíàðÿäà, è îò êà÷åñòâà áðîíè, è îò êðèòåðèÿ ïîðàæåíèÿ. Ïðèìåð? Æóðíàë «Òàíêîìàñòåð» ¹3 2000ã ñòð 13. Ðåçóëüòàòû îáñòðåëà áàøíè Ðåíî R-35. Áðîíÿ ëèòàÿ, òîëùèíà 40-ìì, óãîë 28 ãðàä, äèñòàíöèÿ äî 300ì – ïðîáîèíû ÑÊÂÎÇÍÛÅ (áåç âîïðîñîâ), äèñòàíöèÿ 500ì - âõîäíàÿ ïðîáîèíà 60õ50õ24, âûõîäíàÿ – íåò, õàðàêòåð ïîðàæåíèÿ – ÊÎÍÄÈÖÈÎÍÍÎÅ ÏÐÎÁÈÒÈÅ!!!!!! Íó è ÷åì æå ýòî âñåðü¸ç óãðîæàåò òàíêó â áîþ? Ñíàðÿä äîëæåí, íå òîëüêî, ïðîáèòü áðîíþ, íî è íàíåñòè ïîðàæåíèå ýêèïàæó, áîåêîìïëåêòó, àãðåãàòàì òàíêà, ñíèæàþùåå èëè àííóëèðóþùåå åãî áîåñïîñîáíîñòü.
Íàñ÷¸ò 76-ìì ïîëêîâûõ è äèâèçèîííûõ îðóäèé.  41, â êà÷åñòâå áðîíåáîéíûõ ñíàðÿäîâ, ÷àñòî èñïîëüçîâàëàñü ïîñòàâëåííàÿ íà «óäàð» øðàïíåëü. Äëÿ èñïîëüçîâàíèÿ øðàïíåëè â êà÷åñòâå áðîíåáîéíîãî ñíàðÿäà äàæå ñïåöèàëüíî ñðåçàëñÿ ïåðâûé âåäóùèé ïîÿñîê, î ÷¸ì áûëî ïðèíÿòî ñïåöèàëüíîå ðåøåíèå. Ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî ýòî ðåøåíèå èç ðàçðÿäà « çà íåèìåíèåì ãåðáîâîé – ïèøåì íà êëîçåòíîé».  ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ íåìåöêèé òàíê, ïîâðåæä¸ííûé, òàêèì ñíàðÿäîì âîññòàíàâëèâàëñÿ óæå íà ñëåäóþùèé äåíü.
#22
taratuta
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 07 2008 09:58:05
×èòàéòå äîêëàä íàêðîìàòà ãîñêîíòðîëÿ îò 20.07.41 "Î ðåçóëüòàòàõ ïðîâåðêè ðàáîòû òûëà 27-é À ÑÇÔ". Èëè ÿ âàì äîëæåí âñå ðàñæåâàòü è â ðîò ïîëîæèòü? Õîòèòå ñïîðèòü - ïîäãîòîâüòåñü ê ñïîðó
Õîðîøî áû ðàçæåâàòü. Èëè Âàøà ñòàòüÿ ðàññ÷èòàíà íà àêàäåìèêîâ? È, êñòàòè, êàêîå îòíîøåíèå 5-ÿ ñòðåëêîâàÿ äèâèçèÿ èìååò ê 27-é àðìèè? Îíà âõîäèëà â ñîñòàâ 16-ãî êîðïóñà 11-é àðìèè.
À âû óâåðåíû, ÷òî 27-ÿ àðìèÿ áûëà "óæå ðàçãîðìëåíà"?
Ñêàæåì, ñèëüíî ïîòð¸ïàíà.
À îíè äîëæíû èìåííî äîêàçûâàòü?
Íó, äëÿ ÷åãî-òî Âû âñòàâèëè ýòè äàííûå â òåêñò ñòàòüè. Íàäåþñü, íå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàòü íàì ñâî¸ çíàêîìñòâî ñ äîêëàäîì íàðêîìàòà ãîñêîíòðîëÿ?
Âîò äàëè áû Âû äàííûå íà 22.06.41 ïî íàëè÷èþ ÏÒÀ â ñòðåëêîâûõ äèâèçèÿõ - ýòî áûëî áû ñîâñåì äðóãîå äåëî. Òîëüêî ýòè äàííûå âðÿä ëè ñìîãëè áû ïðîèëëþñòðèðîâàòü áåñïîìîùíîñòü Êðàñíîé àðìèè ïåðåä âðàæåñêèìè òàíêàìè.
#23

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 07 2008 15:25:24
taratuta ïèñàë(à):
Íó, äëÿ ÷åãî-òî Âû âñòàâèëè ýòè äàííûå â òåêñò ñòàòüè. Íàäåþñü, íå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàòü íàì ñâî¸ çíàêîìñòâî ñ äîêëàäîì íàðêîìàòà ãîñêîíòðîëÿ?

Ýòî ÷àñòü ïîëåìèêè ñ ãîñïîäèíîì Çàêîðåöêèì, êîòîðûé ïðèâåë èìåííî ýòîò àðãóìåíò, ñîâåðøåííî íå ïîäóìàâ, ÷òî îí íå òîëüêî íå îïðîâåðãàåò ìîåãî òåçèñà, ÷òî íåìåöêèå òàíêè çà÷àñòóþ èìåëè äîñòàòî÷íóþ áðîíåçàùèòó, íî ïîäêðåïëÿåò åãî.
Ñîáñòâåííî, åñëè îí âàì êàæåòñÿ ñîìíèòåëüíûì, ïðîñòî âûêèíüòå åãî è âñåãî äåëîâ. Îí àáñîëþòíî íå ìåíÿåò ñóòè è áûë äîáàâëåí â ñòàòüþ òîëüêî äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû åùå ðàç ïðîéòèñü ïåøêîì ïî ã-íó Çàêîðåöêîìó. ß óæå ñêàçàë âàì îá ýòîì.

Âîò äàëè áû Âû äàííûå íà 22.06.41 ïî íàëè÷èþ ÏÒÀ â ñòðåëêîâûõ äèâèçèÿõ - ýòî áûëî áû ñîâñåì äðóãîå äåëî.

Ýòî íåîñóùåñòâèìàÿ ìå÷òà. Äàííûå â ÐÊÊÀ ñîáèðàëèñü â êîíöå ìåñÿöà è ïîäàâàëèñü íà íà÷àëî ñëåäóþùåãî. Ïîýòîìó ñòàòèñòèêè íà êîíêðåòíî 22 èþíÿ íå ñóùåñòâóåò. Âñå îïåðèðóþò ìàéñêèìè öèôèðÿìè.

Òîëüêî ýòè äàííûå âðÿä ëè ñìîãëè áû ïðîèëëþñòðèðîâàòü áåñïîìîùíîñòü Êðàñíîé àðìèè ïåðåä âðàæåñêèìè òàíêàìè.

 ýòîì íåò íåîáõîäèìîñòè. Ýòî äîñòàòî÷íî íàãëÿäíî ïðîäåìîíñòðèðîâàë íåìåöêèé âåðìàõò â öåëîì ñâîèìè ïîáåäàìè íà íà÷àëüíîì ýòàïå.
#24

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 07 2008 15:37:49
Staryi_prapor ïèñàë(à):
 êíèãå Ì. Ñâèðèíà «Áðîíåâîé ùèò Ñòàëèíà» Ì. «ßóçà» «Ýêñìî» 2006 ñòð. 178-182, ñîîáùàåòñÿ, ÷òî îñåíüþ 39 íàøè «ïðèõâàòèçèðîâàëè» â Ïîëüøå «äâîéêó» è «òðîéêó».

Î÷åíü õîðîøî, ÷òî Ñâèðèí èçûñêàë âîçìîæíîñòü åùå ðàç îáðàòèòüñÿ ê ýòîìó âîïðîñó è ñîáðàòü ýòè äàííûå âîåäèíî. Ïîòîìó ÷òî îíè ðàçðîçíåííî âñïëûâàëè â ðàçíûå ãîäû â ðàçíûõ èññëåäîâàíèÿõ, íî êàê áû ìåæäó ïðî÷èì.

Ñíàðÿä äîëæåí, íå òîëüêî, ïðîáèòü áðîíþ, íî è íàíåñòè ïîðàæåíèå ýêèïàæó, áîåêîìïëåêòó, àãðåãàòàì òàíêà, ñíèæàþùåå èëè àííóëèðóþùåå åãî áîåñïîñîáíîñòü.

ß áû ñêàçàë òàê, ÷òî ýòî åãî (ñíàðÿäà) åäèíñòâåííàÿ öåëü. À ïðîáèòèå áðîíè ëèøü ñðåäñòâî äîñòèæåíèÿ ýòîé öåëè: âûâåäåíèå èç ñòðîÿ òàíêà è ýêèïàæà. Ïîòîìó ÷òî äî âîéíû ïðîâîäèëèñü èñïûòàíèÿ ðàçíûõ ÏÒ ðóæåé, è îòå÷åñòâåííûõ è äàæå èíîñòðàííûõ.  èòîãå íè îäíî èç íèõ íà âîîðóæåíèå òàê è íå áûëî ïðèíÿòî èìåííî âñëåäñòâèè ñëàáîãî çàáðîíåâîãî äåéñòâèÿ, õîòÿ ìíîãèå ðóæüÿ äîâîëüíî óâåðåííî ïðîáèâàëè òàíêîâóþ áðîíþ òåõ ëåò.

Ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî ýòî ðåøåíèå èç ðàçðÿäà «çà íåèìåíèåì ãåðáîâîé – ïèøåì íà êëîçåòíîé».  ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ íåìåöêèé òàíê, ïîâðåæä¸ííûé, òàêèì ñíàðÿäîì âîññòàíàâëèâàëñÿ óæå íà ñëåäóþùèé äåíü.

Äàæå íå ñòîëüêî â ýòîì äåëî, à â òîì, ÷òî íà íà÷àëüíîì ýòàïå âîéíû ïîëå áîÿ, êàê ïðàâèëî, îñòàâàëîñü çà íåìöàìè è îíè èìåëè âîçìîæíîñòü ýâàêóèðîâàòü è îòðåìîíòèðîâàòü ñâîþ ïîâðåæäåííóþ áðîíåòåõíèêó. Ó íàñ òàêîé âîçìîæíîñòè íå áûëî, ÷òî ïðèâîäèëî ê äîïîëíèòåëüíûì ïîòåðÿì, ïåðåâîäÿ ïðàêòè÷åñêè âñå ïîâðåæäåííûå ìàøèíû â ðàçðÿä áåçâîçâðàòíûõ ïîòåðü.
#25
taratuta
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 16:50:56
Áîëüøèíñòâî íåìåöêèõ òàíêîâ Pz-III è Pz-IV, à òàêæå øòóðìîâûå ÑÀÓ StuG-III èìåëè 50-ìì ëîáîâîå áðîíèðîâàíèå, òî åñòü áûëè äîñòàòî÷íî çàùèùåíû.
76 ìì ïóøêà ÊÂ è Ò-34 ïðîáèâàëà áðîíþ ëþáûõ íåìåöêèõ òàíêîâ íà 600-800 ì.
Äèâèçèîííûå 76,2 ìì (ÓÑÂ è Ô-22) ïðîáèâàëà ëîáîâóþ áðîíþ íà òîé æå äèñòàíöèè , à 45-ìì ïðîáèâàëà áàøíþ è áîðòà - âåäü ïîëíîöåííîãî ïðîòèâîñíàðÿäíîãî áðîíèðîâàíèÿ íåìåöêèå òàíêè íå èìåëè.
Íåìåöêèé æå òàíê Pz II ñ 20-ìì àâòîìàòè÷åñêîé(!) ïóøêîé Ðåçóí ïðîñòî âûñìåÿë, õîòÿ ýòîò òàíê äàâàë ôîðû íàøåìó "íîâåéøåìó" Ò-40 ñòî î÷êîâ ïðåðåä è ïî âîîðóæåíèþ, è ïî çàùèùåííîñòè, è ïî íàäåæíîñòè ìàøèíû â öåëîì. Ñòàëî áûòü, óãîäíîå õâàëèì, íåóãîäíîå ðóãàåì. Ýòî íàçûâàåòñÿ äâîéíûå ñòàíäàðòû.
Ïðàâèëüíî âûñìåÿë. Ïîäóìàåøü, 20 ìì àâòîìàòè÷åñêàÿ (!) ïóøêà. Íà èñòðåáèòåëå òàêàÿ ïóøêà áûëà áû óìåñòíà, íî íå íà áðîíåòåõíèêå. Çíàåòå, ñêîëüêî âåñèë îñêîëî÷íûé "ñíàðÿä" ýòîé ïóøêè? 148 ãðàììîâ. Äëÿ ñðàâíåíèÿ ñíàðÿä 45-ìì ïóøêè ÁÀ-10 (êîòîðûé íàøè èñòîðèêè ïðîñòî èãíîðèðóþò) - 2,13 êã. À Ò-40 òàíê íå ñëèøêîì óäà÷íûé, íî îí è íå äåëàëñÿ äëÿ òàíêîâûõ äóýëåé.
Èòàê, îñòàâøèåñÿ 10540 òàíêîâ ÷èñëèëèñü íà 1 èþíÿ 1941 ãîäà â ðàçðÿäå áîåãîòîâûõ. Èç íèõ 8383 òàíêîâ - áûâøèå â ýêñïëóàòàöèè, ÷àñòü èç êîòîðûõ òðåáîâàëà ìåëêîãî âîéñêîâîãî ðåìîíòà, à 2157 ìàøèí ÷èñëèëèñü êàê ñîâåðøåííî íîâûå, òî åñòü ñ íåèñïîëüçîâàííûì ðåñóðñîì ìîòî÷àñîâ
Ñòàðûå ïåñíè î ãëàâíîì. Ñóäÿ ïî ïîñëåäíåé ïðåäâîåííîé "Âåäîìîñòè íàëè÷èÿ è òåõíè÷åñêîãî ñîñòîÿíèÿ áîåâûõ ìàøèí ïî ñîñòîÿíèþ íà 1 èþíÿ 1941 ã." 10540 òàíêîâ â çàïàäíûõ îêðóãàõ - ýòî 1-ÿ è 2-ÿ êàòåãîðèè, ò.å. òàíêè êàê ìèíèìóì "âïîëíå èñïðàâíûå è ãîäíûå ê èñïîëüçîâàíèþ ïî ïðÿìîìó íàçíà÷åíèþ". Íè î êàêîì "ìåëêîì ðåìîíòå" ðå÷è íåò (ýòî, ÷àñîì íå ïîäëîã?). Êñòàòè, çà òðè íåäåëè, íàäåþñü, ÷àñòü òàíêîâ 3-é êàòåãîðèè îòðåìîíòèðîâàëè?
À òî, ÷òî íå âñå òàíêè áûëè ó çàïàäíûõ ãðàíèö - ñëàâà Áîãó, èíà÷å ìû è èõ ïîòåðÿëè áû.
#27
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 18:51:13
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. Íåñêîëüêî äíåé íàçàä ìíå ïîïàëà â ðóêè êíèãà Ñ. Ïåðåñëåãèíà «Âòîðàÿ Ìèðîâàÿ: âîéíà ìåæäó ðåàëüíîñòÿìè», â êîòîðîé, àâòîð ïðåäëàãàåò ñâîþ ãèïîòåçó, îáúÿñíÿþùþþ, ñîáûòèÿ íà÷àëà âîéíû. Æåëàþùèå, ÿ äóìàþ, îçíàêîìÿòñÿ ñ ïåðâîèñòî÷íèêîì, à â äâóõ ñëîâàõ, ãèïîòåçà ñîñòîèò â ñëåäóþùåì: - ïîñëå êîìàíäíî-øòàáíûõ èãð êîíöà 40ã. (â êîòîðûõ, êñòàòè, Æóêîâ, èãðàÿ çà íåìöåâ, âäðåáåçãè ðàçãðîìèë Ïàâëîâà), ñîâåòñêîå êîìàíäîâàíèå óáåäèëîñü, ÷òî ó íåãî íåò âûèãðûøíîãî âàðèàíòà â ïðèãðàíè÷íîì ñðàæåíèè, è ïðèíÿëî ðåøåíèå, – ïîæåðòâîâàâ àðìèÿìè ïðèêðûòèÿ, ðàçìåíÿòü òåððèòîðèþ íà âðåìÿ, ñîðâàòü íåìöàì «áëèöêðèã», ïðîâåñòè ýâàêóàöèþ ïðîìûøëåííîñòè, è ðàçâåðíóòü ïåðìàíåíòíóþ ìîáèëèçàöèþ.
Òàêèì îáðàçîì, Ñîâåòñêèé Ñîþç ïðîèãðàë Ïðèãðàíè÷íîå ñðàæåíèå, íî âûèãðàë ýâàêóàöèþ è ïîñòàâèë Ãåðìàíèþ ïåðåä ïåðñïåêòèâîé çàòÿæíîé âîéíû íà èñòîùåíèå, â êîòîðîé îíà ÍÅ ÈÌÅËÀ ØÀÍÑΠ(÷òî, âîîáùå-òî, áûëî èçâåñòíî åù¸ Ìîëüòêå-ñòàðøåìó). Ýâàêóàöèÿ íà÷àëàñü 29 ÈÞÍß è ïðîøëà, ïðàêòè÷åñêè ÁÅÇ ÑÁÎÅÂ. Ñ èìïðîâèçàöèÿìè òàê ÍÅ ÁÛÂÀÅÒ. Ïî ñëîæíîñòè, êàê îðãàíèçàöèîííàÿ, è ëîãèñòè÷åñêàÿ çàäà÷à, îíà äî ñèõ ïîð íå èìååò ñåáå ðàâíûõ. È, âåäü ðåøåíà áûëà, îíà áåçî âñÿêèõ êîìïîâ – òîëüêî ÌÂÌ «Ôåëèêñ» (êòî ïîìíèò, ÷òî ýòî òàêîå), ëîãàðèôìè÷åñêàÿ ëèíåéêà è áåçðàçìåðíûå ïðîñòûíè òàáëèö!
Ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî íèêòî íå îæèäàë, ÷òî Ïðèãðàíè÷íîå ñðàæåíèå ðàçâåðí¸òñÿ òàê, êàê îíî ðàçâåðíóëîñü! Íî âåäü íå çðÿ ãîâîðÿò – «íè îäèí ïëàí íå æèâ¸ò äîëüøå ïåðâîãî ñòîëêíîâåíèÿ ñ ïðîòèâíèêîì».  îñíîâíîì, äèñêóññèÿ è âåðòèòñÿ âîêðóã âîïðîñà – «à ïî÷åìó Ïðèãðàíè÷íîå ñðàæåíèå áûëî ÒÀÊ ïðîèãðàíî?»
Íà ìîé âçãëÿä ýòî:
ãðóïïà îáúåêòèâíûõ (íà 22.06.41) ïðè÷èí:
-îáùåå îòñòàâàíèå, â ïðîìûøëåííîì ðàçâèòèè è óðîâíå òåõíè÷åñêîé êóëüòóðû, îò Ãåðìàíèè;
-ïîòåðÿ, ïî èòîãàì ãðàæäàíñêîé âîéíû, çíà÷èòåëüíîé ÷àñòè èíòåëëåêòóàëüíîé ýëèòû;
-îòñóòñòâèå îáùåé ¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬¬ ïîòîìñòâåííîé ãðàìîòíîñòè íàñåëåíèÿ («ëèêáåç» ýòî, áåçóñëîâíî âåëè÷àéøåå äîñòèæåíèå ñîâåòñêîé âëàñòè, íî âûøå ïîòîëêà íå ïðûãíåøü, à â Ïðóññèè îáÿçàòåëüíîå íà÷àëüíîå îáðàçîâàíèå èìåëî ìåñòî áûòü ñ íà÷àëà XIX âåêà);
-îòâðàòèòåëüíîå ñîñòîÿíèå ñâÿçè â ñòðàíå è â àðìèè, íå çðÿ ìîëâà ïðèïèñûâàåò Áóä¸ííîìó ôðàçó - «ñèëüíà Êðàñíàÿ Àðìèÿ, íî ñâÿçü å¸ ïîãóáèò»!!! È âåäü ïðàâ áûë ñòàðûé êîíü – ïî÷òè ïîãóáèëà!
Ãðóïïà ñóáúåêòèâíûõ ïðè÷èí:
-ïîñëåäñòâèÿ ðåïðåññèé â îáùåñòâå è â àðìèè: ïàäåíèå è òàê íå ñëèøêîì âûñîêîãî îáðàçîâàòåëüíîãî óðîâíÿ êîìñîñòàâà, êàäðîâàÿ ÷åõàðäà, ðàçðóøåíèå êîðïîðàòèâíîãî äóõà â àðìèè, ïàäåíèå äèñöèïëèíû, ðàçðóøåíèå ðàçâåäêè. Îá ýòîì ìíîãî ïèñàëè, è â ðàçíîé òîíàëüíîñòè, íî … ôàêò íàëèöî.
-ñèëüíî óðîíèâøàÿ ðåïóòàöèþ íàøåé àðìèè Çèìíÿÿ âîéíà. Íå çðÿ ïîýò íàçâàë å¸ – «íåçíàìåíèòîé».
-îøèáî÷íûå îðãøòàòíûå ðåøåíèÿ, îñîáåííî ïî òàíêîâûì âîéñêàì è àâèàöèè è âîîáùå îðãøòàòíàÿ ÷åõàðäà. Åñëè ñòðåëêîâûõ äèâèçèé îíà ïî÷òè íå êîñíóëàñü, òî òàíêèñòû îãðåáëè ïîëíîé ìåðîé. Ïðîòèâîòàíêèñòû – òîæå. Èíòåðåñóþùèåñÿ, ïîñìîòðèòå âî «Ôðîíòîâîé èëëþñòðàöèè» 03ã ¹5. Òàì îïèñàíî êàê ôîðìèðîâàëèñü ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûå áðèãàäû. Ñòðóêòóðà ìåõêîðïóñîâ îáðàçöà 40ã áûëà ñîâåðøåííî íåæèçíåñïîñîáíîé: ïåðåãðóæåííîñòü òàíêàìè, ïðè îñòðîé íåõâàòêå ïåõîòû, îòñóòñòâèå îðóäèé ÏÒÎ, íåõâàòêà çåíèòíûõ ñðåäñòâ, ïåùåðíûé óðîâåíü ñâÿçè è òûëà, ÷àñòè, ãîâîðÿ ñîâðåì¸ííûì ÿçûêîì, ïîñòîÿííîé ãîòîâíîñòè, ïîëó÷àëè àâòîòðàíñïîðò èç íàðîäíîãî õîçÿéñòâà, ïî ìîáèëèçàöèè. Ê ñëîâó, ïåðåãðóçêîé ÒÄ òàíêàìè ãðåøèëè è ÑÑÑÐ, è ÑØÀ, è Âåëèêîáðèòàíèÿ, è Ðåéõ. Òîëüêî íåìöû â 40 ãîäó ïî èòîãàì ôðàíöóçñêîé êîìïàíèè ïðîâåëè ðåîðãàíèçàöèþ ñâîèõ ÒÄ, òó ñàìóþ, î êîòîðîé, è Ðåçóí, è íåêîòîðûå, íå øèáêî ãðàìîòíûå ñîâåòñêèå àâòîðû õàðàêòåðèçîâàëè êàê «òèïà ìîøåííè÷åñòâî» - òàíêîâ êàê è áûëî, à äèâèçèé â äâà ðàçà áîëüøå?! À íà ñàìîì äåëå íåìöû, ïðàêòè÷åñêè èäåàëüíî, äëÿ IIWW, ñáàëàíñèðîâàëè ñâîþ ÒÄ. Ìû ê, ïîäîáíîìó áàëàíñó, ïðèøëè, òîëüêî â 43 ñôîðìèðîâàâ íîâûå ÌÊ, à àìåðèêàíöû ò.í. «ë¸ãêèå» ÒÄ.
 àâèàöèè áûëà äðóãàÿ ïðîáëåìà – íå ñîîòâåòñòâóþùàÿ òðåáîâàíèÿì âîéíû, ïîä÷èíåíèå àâèàäèâèçèé îáùåâîéñêîâûì àðìèÿì, êîìàíäóþùèå ÎÀ áûëè ñîâåðøåííî íå ãîòîâû ê ýòîì, âî-ïåðâûõ, è, òàêàÿ ñèñòåìà èñêëþ÷àëà áûñòðûé ìàí¸âð è ìàññèðîâàíèå àâèàöèè, âî-âòîðûõ. Âåäü ñîâåòñêàÿ àâèàöèÿ áûëà ðàçãðîìëåíà ÍÅ 22.06.41. Ïîòåðè, ïîíåñ¸ííûå, íàìè â ïåðâûé äåíü âîéíû, áûëè, êîíå÷íî, áîëåçíåííû, íî îòíþäü íå îáåñïå÷èâàëè íåìöàì ÷èñëåííîãî ïðåâîñõîäñòâà. Âûáèëè íàøó àâèàöèþ îíè â òå÷åíèå ïåðâûõ íåäåëü âîéíû, è îñíîâíóþ ðîëü çäåñü ñûãðàëî, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, îòñóòñòâèå íàäëåæàùåãî óïðàâëåíèÿ. Ïîäðîáíî «ÔÈ» 2000 ¹3.
-îøèáî÷íûå, îöåíêà è ïðîãíîç ðàçâèòèÿ ñîáûòèé, ó âûñøåãî ðóêîâîäñòâà (â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü ó Ñòàëèíà).
-íåñîîòâåòñòâèå ðÿäà âûñøèõ êîìàíäèðîâ çàíèìàåìûì äîëæíîñòÿì (íàâåðíî ñàìûé ÿðêèé ïðèìåð ã.-ï. Êóçíåöîâ Ô.È.: ñíà÷àëà ïðîñðàë ÑÇÔ, à ïîòîì Êðûì: è íå ðàññòðåëÿëè âåäü â îòëè÷èå îò áåäíÿãè Ïàâëîâà)
-óòðàòà óïðàâëåíèÿ âîéñêàìè â ïåðâûé æå äåíü, ïîìíîæåííàÿ, íà íåðâíûé ñðûâ ó Ñòàëèíà â ïåðâûå äíè
-íåîñâîåííîñòü íîâûõ îáðàçöîâ òåõíèêè ëè÷íûì ñîñòàâîì, ïîìíîæåííàÿ, íà íàøó ïàðàíîèäàëüíóþ ñåêðåòíîñòü (êëàññè÷åñêèé ïðèìåð – â 6 ìåõêîðïóñå, ó Õàöêèëåâè÷à, çàïîðîëè íà ïåðâîì æå çàïóñêå, ïÿòü Ò-34 - òàíêèñòû ÍÅ ÇÍÀËÈ, ÷òî íà Ò-34 ñòîèò äèçåëü, è çàïðàâèëè èõ ÁÅÍÇÈÍÎÌ). Ì. Êîëîìèåö â «Ïðåëþäèè ê «Áàðáàðîññå» îöåíèâàåò êîëè÷åñòâî õîòü êàê-òî ïîäãîòîâëåííûõ íà Ê è Ò-34 ýêèïàæåé â 300-350! È, ÷òî òîëêó, ÷òî òàíêîâ â ïÿòü ðàç áîëüøå!
-Ò-34 è Ê â 41 áûëè åù¸ Î×ÅÍÜ «ñûðûìè» ìàøèíàìè è èõ íàä¸æíîñòü áûëà íèæå ïëèíòóñà, óìíîæòå ýòî íà óðîâåíü «ïîäãîòîâêè» ýêèïàæåé (Âîâ÷åíêî â ñâîèõ ìåìóàðàõ îïèñûâàåò òèïè÷íûé ýïèçîä – ïðèñëàííûå â ÷àñòü Ò-34 è Ê çàìîòàëè â áðåçåíò äî ñàìûõ ãóñåíèö, âûñòàâèëè ÷àñîâûõ è áëèæå 50ì ê òàíêàì íèêîãî íå ïîäïóñêàëè. Âî èçó÷åíèå íîâîé òåõíèêè?!!!) è âîçâåäèòå â ñòåïåíü òûëîâîãî «îáåñïå÷åíèÿ» è ñòàíåò ïîíÿòíî ïî÷åìó Ò-34 íåìöû çàìåòèëè òîëüêî â àâãóñòå, à 6 ÌÊ Õàöêèëåâè÷à ðàçìåùàâøèéñÿ â Áåëîñòîêñêîì âûñòóïå ÓÊÎÌÏËÅÊÒÎÂÀÍÍÛÉ ïî øòàòó è èìåâøèé îêîëî 400 íîâûõ òàíêîâ íåìöû ïîïðîñòó ÍÅ ÇÀÌÅÒÈËÈ.
 êà÷åñòâå ìàòåðèàëà ïî èñòîðèè ìåõêîðïóñîâ 40ã åñòü êíèãà Åâãåíèÿ Äðèãà «Ìåõàíèçèðîâàííûå êîðïóñà ÐÊÊÀ â áîþ» ñåðèÿ «Íåèçâåñòíûå âîéíû» èçä. ÀÑÒ 2005ã


P.S. Staryi_prapor, âñ¸-òàêè, ïèñàë, áåç «à» â ñêîáêàõ.
#28
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 18:52:23
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé.  ñëåäóþùåé êíèãå Ñâèðèíà « Ñòàëüíîé êóëàê Ñòàëèíà» ñòð. 95-96 ïðèâåä¸í ýïèçîä îòñòðåëà â ñåðåäèíå 43ã, íà Ñâåðäëîâñêîì ïîëèãîíå «òðîéêè» ñ êîìáèíèðîâàííîé ëîáîâîé áðîí¸é. Îñíîâíàÿ áðîíÿ 52-ìì, çàòåì ñîëèäíûé çàçîð, è 20-ìì ëèñò âûñîêîé òâ¸ðäîñòè. Òàêèå òàíêè ÷àñòî ïîïàäàþòñÿ íà ôîòîãðàôèÿõ. Äèñòàíöèÿ îòñòðåëà íå óêàçàíà, íî áûëî ñäåëàíî ÒÐÈ âûñòðåëà 85-ìì çåíèòêè 39ã (áàëëèñòèêà îðóäèé Ò-43-85 è ÑÓ-85) è ÄÂÀ âûñòðåëà èç 122-ìì ïóøêè À-19 (áàëëèñòèêà îðóäèé ÈÑ-2 è ÈÑÓ-122). ÍÈ ÎÄÈÍ ñíàðÿä íå ïðîáèë áðîíþ.
#29
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 18:57:22
Taratuta. Êñòàòè 2,13êã âåñèë ÎÑÊÎËÎ×ÍÛÉ ñíàðÿä, ÁÐÎÍÅÁÎÉÍÛÉ âåñèë 1,48êã, à ÏÎÄÊÀËÈÁÅÐÍÛÉ – 0,85êã. Âíèìàòåëüíî ÷èòàéòå ñïðàâî÷íèêè.
#30

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 21:00:16
ß íå ðàçäåëÿþ ãèïîòåçó Ïåðåñëåãèíà, ÷òî, ìîë, ìû íàðî÷íî ïîäñòàâèëè êàäðîâóþ àðìèþ, ëèøèëèñü åå è ïîòîì ñóäîðîæíî ñîáèðàëè íîâóþ àðìèþ èç ðåçåðâèñòîâ è äîáðîâîëüöåâ. Ýòî áðåä.

Ýâàêóàöèÿ íà÷àëàñü 29 ÈÞÍß è ïðîøëà, ïðàêòè÷åñêè ÁÅÇ ÑÁÎÅÂ. Ñ èìïðîâèçàöèÿìè òàê ÍÅ ÁÛÂÀÅÒ.

Ýòî î÷åíü áîëüøàÿ çàãàäêà èñòîðèè è æäåò åùå ñâîåãî ÷åñòíîãî èññëåäîâàòåëÿ. Ïîòîìó ÷òî ñàìà ýâàêóàöèÿ - ýòî ëèøü ìàëàÿ ÷àñòü. À âîò ïóñòèòü çàâîä "â ÷èñòîì ïîëå" íå ïîëó÷èòñÿ íè çà äâà ìåñÿöà, íè çà ïîëãîäà. Ïîòîìó ÷òî íàäî äîñòàâèòü ýíåðãèþ, âîäó, ïðîâèàíò, ëþäñêèå ñèëû äëÿ ñòðîèòåëüñòâà, òåõíèêó äëÿ ñòðîèòåëüñòâà, ñòðîéìàòåðèàëû è êó÷ó âñåãî ïðî÷åãî. Äëÿ ýòîãî íàäî ïðåäóñìîòðåòü ÄÎÐÎÃÈ, à ïîñêîëüêó ýâàêóàöèÿ øëà â îñåííèé ïåðèîä, òî äîðîãè äîëæíû áûòü õîðîøèìè, èíà÷å ðàñïóòèöà âñå îñòàíîâèò. À äîðîãó ñòðîèòü äîëãî è äîðîãî...
 îáùåì, ýòî âñ¸ î÷åíü òåìíîå äåëî è âàðèàíò íåáëàãîïðèÿòíîãî ðàçâèòèÿ âîéíû ïðîäóìûâàëñÿ î÷åíü è î÷åíü ãëóáîêî è äåòàëüíî. Ïðè÷åì íå òîëüêî íà áóìàãàõ, íî è â æåëåçå è áåòîíå. Ýòî ó Ðåçóíà â êíèæêàõ äëÿ äåáèëîâ âñ¸ ðàñæåâàíî, ëåãêî è ïîíÿòíî.

ãðóïïà îáúåêòèâíûõ (íà 22.06.41) ïðè÷èí:
Ñàìóþ ãëàâíóþ ïðè÷èíó âû íå íàçâàëè:
- îòñóòñòâèå îïûòà óïðàâëåíèÿ áîëüøèìè ìàññàìè âîéñê â óñëîâèÿõ ñîâðåìåííîé ìàíåâðåííîé âîéíû.
Ó íåìöåâ áûëî ïî÷òè ïîëòîðà ãîäà íà óñòðàíåíèå ýòîãî ìîìåíòà, ÐÊÊÀ ïðèøëîñü ýòîìó ó÷èòüñÿ ïîä îãíåì íåìöåâ. Çèìíÿÿ âîéíà áûëà ñîâåðøåííî íå ìàíåâðåííîé, âîåííûå êîíôëèêòû ñ ßïîíèåé íîñèëè ëîêàëüíûé õàðàêòåð. Íåêîòîðûé îïûò áûë ïîëó÷åí â Èñïàíèè, íî â îáùåé ìàññå ýòîãî îêàçàëîñü ìàëî, ê òîìó æå ÷àñòü "èñïàíöåâ" áûëà ïîçæå ðåïðåññèðîâàíà.

Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé.  ñëåäóþùåé êíèãå Ñâèðèíà « Ñòàëüíîé êóëàê Ñòàëèíà» ñòð. 95-96 ïðèâåä¸í ýïèçîä îòñòðåëà â ñåðåäèíå 43ã, íà Ñâåðäëîâñêîì ïîëèãîíå «òðîéêè» ñ êîìáèíèðîâàííîé ëîáîâîé áðîí¸é. Îñíîâíàÿ áðîíÿ 52-ìì, çàòåì ñîëèäíûé çàçîð, è 20-ìì ëèñò âûñîêîé òâ¸ðäîñòè. Òàêèå òàíêè ÷àñòî ïîïàäàþòñÿ íà ôîòîãðàôèÿõ. Äèñòàíöèÿ îòñòðåëà íå óêàçàíà, íî áûëî ñäåëàíî ÒÐÈ âûñòðåëà 85-ìì çåíèòêè 39ã (áàëëèñòèêà îðóäèé Ò-43-85 è ÑÓ-85) è ÄÂÀ âûñòðåëà èç 122-ìì ïóøêè À-19 (áàëëèñòèêà îðóäèé ÈÑ-2 è ÈÑÓ-122). ÍÈ ÎÄÈÍ ñíàðÿä íå ïðîáèë áðîíþ.

 ñîâåòñêèõ äîêóìåíòàõ òàêàÿ áðîíà íàçûâàåòñÿ "âçâîäÿùàÿ", â àíãëèéñêîì ÿçûêå - spaced armor. Ñóòü åå çàêëþ÷åíà â òîì, ÷òî îñíîâûì ÁÁ ñíàðÿäîì 122-ìì ïóøêè áûë êàìîðíûé ÁÁ ñíàðÿä, çàðÿä êîòîðîãî âçðûâàëñÿ ïðè ñòîëêíîâåíèè ñ ïåðâûì ñëîåì áðîíè.  ðåçóëüòàòå, ñíàðÿä ðàçûâàëî, äî òîãî, êàê îí óñïåâàë "âîòêíóòüñÿ" âî âòîðîé ñëîé áðîíè. Åñëè áû ñòðåëÿëè "áîëâàíêîé", òî áûëî áû ïðîáèòèå. Íî â ÁÊ ïóøêè À-19 òàêîãî ñíàðÿäà íå áûëî.
#31

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 08 2008 21:05:47
taratuta ïèñàë(à):
....

Èçâèíèòå, taratuta, íî ìíå íå èíòåðåñíî ñïîðèòü î ìèëëèìåòðàõ áðîíè è êèëîìåòðàõ â ÷àñ. È î êîëè÷åñòâå òàí÷èêîâ òîæå. ß íàïèñàë ñòàòüþ, âû åå ïðî÷èòàëè. Ñîãëàñíû - õîðîøî, íå ñîãëàñíû - íå íàäî.
#32
taratuta
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 09 2008 03:12:42
Staryi_prapor ïèñàë(à):
Taratuta. Êñòàòè 2,13êã âåñèë ÎÑÊÎËÎ×ÍÛÉ ñíàðÿä, ÁÐÎÍÅÁÎÉÍÛÉ âåñèë 1,48êã, à ÏÎÄÊÀËÈÁÅÐÍÛÉ – 0,85êã. Âíèìàòåëüíî ÷èòàéòå ñïðàâî÷íèêè.
À ÿ è íàïèñàë ïðî îñêîëî÷íûé. Âíèìàòåëüíåé ÷èòàéòå.
Ïåðåñëåãèíà ÿ òîæå ïðî÷èòàë ïàðó íåäåëü íàçàä. Òàì åñòü ÿâíûå ëÿïû (ñêàæåì, ïðî àâèàöèþ, óíè÷òîæåííóþ íà àýðîäðîìàõ 22 èþíÿ), íî âåðñèè ïðî òî, ÷òî ðóêîâîäñòâî ñïåöèàëüíî ïîäñòàâèëî ïîä ðàçãðîì êàäðîâóþ àðìèþ, ÷òîáû âûèãðàòü âðåìÿ, ÷òî-òî íå ïðèïîìèíàþ. Òóò ñîãëàøóñü ñ Âàëåðèåì - ÷åïóõà. Òî, ÷òî óñïåëè ïåðåáàçèðîâàòü ïðîìûøëåííîñòü - çäîðîâî, ýòî ñòàëî âàæíûì ôàêòîðîì Ïîáåäû. Ïëþñ ëåíä-ëèç, ðàçóìååòñÿ. Áåç íåãî áûëî áû ñîâñåì õóäî.
ìíå íå èíòåðåñíî ñïîðèòü î ìèëëèìåòðàõ áðîíè è êèëîìåòðàõ â ÷àñ. È î êîëè÷åñòâå òàí÷èêîâ òîæå. ß íàïèñàë ñòàòüþ, âû åå ïðî÷èòàëè. Ñîãëàñíû - õîðîøî, íå ñîãëàñíû - íå íàäî.
Óâû. Âû òàê õë¸ñòêî ðóãàåòå Ðåçóíà, íà÷àâøåãî ïèñàòü ñâîè îïóñû åù¸ â øåñòèäåñÿòûõ ãîäàõ. Ðàçóìååòñÿ, ó íåãî ìàññà ïðîêîëîâ. Ãëàâíîå ó íåãî, åñëè Âû íå ïîíÿëè - ïëàíû Ñòàëèíà â óäîáíûé ìîìåíò àòàêîâàòü Ãèòëåðà (íó, è âñþ ïðî÷óþ Åâðîïó, êîíå÷íî).
Ïî÷åìó-òî êîíêðåòíûå öèôðû ó Âàñ âûçûâàþò ñêóêó. Ïî÷åìó?
#33

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 09 2008 06:47:39
taratuta ïèñàë(à):
Óâû. Âû òàê õë¸ñòêî ðóãàåòå Ðåçóíà, íà÷àâøåãî ïèñàòü ñâîè îïóñû åù¸ â øåñòèäåñÿòûõ ãîäàõ. Ðàçóìååòñÿ, ó íåãî ìàññà ïðîêîëîâ. Ãëàâíîå ó íåãî, åñëè Âû íå ïîíÿëè - ïëàíû Ñòàëèíà â óäîáíûé ìîìåíò àòàêîâàòü Ãèòëåðà (íó, è âñþ ïðî÷óþ Åâðîïó, êîíå÷íî).

Âîîáùå-òî î òîì, ÷òî åñòü "ãëàâíîå" â òðèëîãèè Ðåçóíà ÿ íàïèñàë â ñàìîì íà÷àëå ñòàòüè. Ñ òåõ ïîð ìîå ìíåíèå íå èçìåíèëîñü.
ß äî ñèõ ïîð ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî äàæå åñëè äîïóñòèòü, ÷òî Ñòàëèí õîòåë èìåííî íàïàñòü íà Ãåðìàíèþ è, òåì ñàìûì, ñïðîâîöèðîâàë Âòîðóþ Ìèðîâóþ âîéíó, òî ëè÷íî Ðåçóí ýòîãî äîêàçàòü íå ñìîã, èáî èçáðàë ïóòü âðàíüÿ, ïîäëîãîâ è ôàëüñèôèêàöèè. Îá ýòîì ìîÿ ñòàòüÿ.

Ïî÷åìó-òî êîíêðåòíûå öèôðû ó Âàñ âûçûâàþò ñêóêó. Ïî÷åìó?

Ïîòîìó ÷òî êîãäà ÿ ïèñàë ñòàòüþ ÿ áûë íà 8 ëåò ìîëîæå, çíàë íà 8 ëåò ìåíüøå, è äóìàë ïî-äðóãîìó. Ñåé÷àñ âû ïîëåçëè â äåáðè öèôèðåé è ñòàòèñòèê. ×òîáû âàì îïïîíèðîâàòü è äîêàçûâàòü, ïî÷åìó ÿ 8 ëåò íàçàä íàïèñàë òàê, à íå èíà÷å, ìíå íàäî ñèäåòü è âñïîìèíàòü, ÷åì ÿ òîãäà ðóêîâîäñòâîâàëñÿ, ëåçòü îáðàòíî â òå æå êíèæêè. Äëÿ ìåíÿ ýòî øàã íàçàä è ïîòåðÿ êó÷è âðåìåíè íåïîíÿòíî ðàäè ÷åãî. È, ãëàâíîå, ñåãîäíÿ, åñëè áû ÿ ïèñàë ñòàòüþ, òî ãîâîðèë áû ñîâåðøåííî î äðóãîì. Íåò, òî, ÷òî íàïèñàíî â ñòàòüå - íàïèñàíî, â îáùåì, âåðíî. Íî ýòî íå òî. Âîâñå íå ìèëëèìåòðû áðîíè è íå êèëîãðàììû óäåëüíîãî äàâëåíèÿ íà ãðóíò ñûãðàëè ïå÷àëüíóþ ðîëü â íàøèõ íåóäà÷àõ íà÷àëüíîãî ïåðèîäà âîéíû.
Âîò ïîýòîìó ÿ òàê âàì îòâåòèë.
#34
taratuta
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 09 2008 16:04:01
Âîâñå íå ìèëëèìåòðû áðîíè è íå êèëîãðàììû óäåëüíîãî äàâëåíèÿ íà ãðóíò ñûãðàëè ïå÷àëüíóþ ðîëü â íàøèõ íåóäà÷àõ íà÷àëüíîãî ïåðèîäà âîéíû.
Âîò ïîýòîìó ÿ òàê âàì îòâåòèë.

Íó, åñëè Âû ïðèùëè ê òîìó, ÷òî ãëàâíàÿ ïðè÷èíà ïîðàæåíèé â íèêóäûøíåé áîåâîé ïîäãîòîâêå, à èíîãäà è â ïîëíîì íåæåëàíèè âîåâàòü, òî ÿ ïîëíîñòüþ ñîãëàñåí.
#35

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 09 2008 17:10:41
Ñîáñòâåííî, êîãäà ÿ ïèñàë ñòàòüþ, ÿ òîæå ïðèäåðæèâàëñÿ òîãî ìíåíèÿ, ÷òî âîéíó âûèãðûâàþò íå ìèëëèìåòðû áðîíè.
Áîåâàÿ ïîäãîòîâêà áûëà äåéñòâèòåëüíî íèçêîé, íî êàêàÿ-íèêàêàÿ, îíà âñå æå áûëà. À âîò êîãäà êàäðîâàÿ àðìèÿ ê îñåíè âñÿ âûáèòà, òî íà ñìåíó åé ïðèøëè ëþäè, êîòîðûå âîîáùå íèêàêîé áîåâîé ïîäãîòîâêè íå èìåëè.
ß íå ñîãëàñåí, ÷òî â Îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíå ó íàñ íå áûëî æåëàíèÿ âîåâàòü. Òàêîãî æåëàíèÿ íå áûëî â Çèìíþþ âîéíó, ïîòîìó ÷òî ñîëäòû íå ïîíèìàëè êàêîãî ðîæíà ìû çàáûëè â Ôèíëÿíäèè. À âîò êîãäà íåìöû ñòàëè áîìáèòü íàøè ãîðîäà, òî æåëàíèå âîåâàòü êàê ðàç áûëî îãðîìíîå! Ïîäòâåðæäàåòñÿ áóêâàëüíî âñåìè âîñïîìèíàíèÿìè, ÷èòàéòå íàø ñàéò http://www.iremember.ru
#36
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 09 2008 17:50:52
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. Ðàçóìååòñÿ, íèêòî «íàðî÷íî» ÂÑÞ êàäðîâóþ àðìèþ íå ïîäñòàâëÿë! È Ïåðåñëåãèí íè÷åãî ïîäîáíîãî íå ïèñàë. Ó íåãî ðå÷ü øëà èìåííî îá àðìèè ïðèêðûòèÿ. Ïðîñòî ïåðâîå æå ñòîëêíîâåíèå ñ ïðîòèâíèêîì «âíåñëî êîððåêòèâû â ïëàí». Ýòî â Ïåðâóþ Ìèðîâóþ äåéñòâèÿ àðìèé ïðèêðûòèÿ íîñèëè ïðîùóïûâàþùèé õàðàêòåð, à íàì äîñòàëàñü ïîëíîâåñíàÿ ïëþõà. È àðìèÿ ïðèêðûòèÿ, â ëþáîé âîéíå, ýòî, âñ¸-òàêè æåðòâà. Îò íå¸ íå òðåáóþò ïîáåäû, å¸ çàäà÷à, îáåñïå÷èòü âñòóïëåíèå â áîé ãëàâíûõ ñèë. Âîîáùå, ïîëêîâîäöó, ÷àñòî, ïðèõîäèòñÿ ïðèíèìàòü ðåøåíèå î æåðòâå ÷àñòè ñèë. Ýòî, óâû, íåèçáåæíî.  èñêóññòâå ýòà òåìà íàøëà îòðàæåíèå ó Áîíäàðåâà: «Áàòàëüîíû ïðîñÿò îãíÿ», ñþæåò ýòîé êíèãè âîø¸ë, îäíîé èç ëèíèé, â ôèëüì «Ïðîðûâ» - âòîðóþ ÷àñòü êèíîýïîïåè «Îñâîáîæäåíèå», è âî âòîðîé ñåðèè ôèëüìà «Êðàñíàÿ ïëîùàäü»: ýòî, ÷òî êàñàåòñÿ ýìîöèîíàëüíîé è ýòè÷åñêîé ñòîðîíû âîïðîñà.
Âû, ðàçóìååòñÿ, ïðàâû íàñ÷¸ò ïóíêòà îá îòñóòñòâèè îïûòà óïðàâëåíèÿ âîéñêàìè, â óñëîâèÿõ áîëüøîé, ìàíåâðåííîé âîéíû. ß, ýòîò âîïðîñ ïðîøëÿïèë.  ñâî¸ îïðàâäàíèå, ìîãó çàìåòèòü, ÷òî ìíîãèå ñîñòàâíûå ÷àñòè ýòîãî ìîìåíòà, ñîäåðæàòñÿ â äðóãèõ, ïðèâåä¸ííûõ ìíîé ïóíêòàõ. Íå â îïðàâäàíèå âûñøèõ êîìàíäèðîâ ÐÊÊÀ, à ðàäè èñòèíû õî÷ó çàìåòèòü, ÷òî ó íàñ, â ïîëíîé ìåðå ïðîÿâèë ñåáÿ «÷åòâ¸ðòûé çàêîí Íüþòîíà» - «ëþáàÿ àðìèÿ âåëèêîëåïíî ïîäãîòîâëåíà ê ïðîøåäøåé âîéíå». Íàøè êîìàíäèðû îêàçàëèñü, â áîëüøèíñòâå ñâî¸ì, ñîâåðøåííî íå ãîòîâû ê òåìïàì èçìåíåíèÿ îáñòàíîâêè, Îíè ïðèâûêëè ê õàðàêòåðíîìó âðåìåíè èçìåíåíèÿ îáñòàíîâêè îò ñóòîê äî íåäåëè, îáû÷íîìó äëÿ Ïåðâîé Ìèðîâîé è Ãðàæäàíñêîé, à òóò ýòî âðåìÿ óìåíüøèëîñü äî ÷àñîâ (ñàìûå, íàâåðíîå, ÿðêèå ïðèìåðû 41 ãîäà – ýòî ðûâîê 56 ÌÊ Ìàíøòåéíà â ïåðâûé äåíü âîéíû, è çàõâàò Ãóäåðèàíîì Îðëà).  îáùåì, íàøè «îòöû – êîìàíäèðû» íå æäàëè ÒÀÊÎÃÎ íà÷àëà âîéíû, è îêàçàëèñü ê íåìó, ïñèõîëîãè÷åñêè, â îñíîâíîé ìàññå íå ãîòîâû. È, êàê ñëåäñòâèå, âîéíà, âåñüìà çíà÷èòåëüíî îáíîâèëà âûñøèé (îò êîìàíäàðìà è âûøå) êîìñîñòàâ.
Ê ýòîìó íóæíî äîáàâèòü è, îêàçàâøóþñÿ, â èòîãå, ÷åðåçâû÷àéíî âðåäíîé, ïðåäâîåííóþ ïðîïàãàíäó, òèïà ôèëüìà «Åñëè çàâòðà âîéíà», ïðè òîì ôàêòå, ÷òî âûðàæåíèå ìàëåéøåãî ñîìíåíèÿ, â ýòèõ óñòàíîâêàõ, áûëî âåñüìà è âåñüìà ÷åðåâàòî ïðåñêâåðíûìè ïîñëåäñòâèÿìè.  èòîãå «õîòåëè, êàê ëó÷øå, à ïîëó÷èëîñü, êàê âñåãäà» (×åðíîìûðäèí Â.Ñ.).
Íî ýâàêóàöèÿ, òåì íå ìåíåå, ïðîøëà ïî ïëàíó, è ñäåëàëà ñâî¸ äåëî!
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé. Âû ïèøåòå: - «äëÿ ýòîãî íàäî ïðåäóñìîòðåòü ÄÎÐÎÃÈ, à ïîñêîëüêó ýâàêóàöèÿ øëà â îñåííèé ïåðèîä, òî äîðîãè äîëæíû áûòü õîðîøèìè, èíà÷å ðàñïóòèöà âñå îñòàíîâèò». Âûíóæäåí âîçðàçèòü. Ó íàñ íå Àìåðèêà, ñ å¸ õàéâýÿìè è àâòîòðàíñïîðòîì. Ó íàñ ê ëþáîìó, ïðàêòè÷åñêè, çàâîäó ïîäâåäåíà «æåëåçêà», ýâàêóàöèÿ âåëàñü ïî æ.-ä. è íà óæå ñóùåñòâóþùèå ïëîùàäè çàâîäîâ. Êîíå÷íî, â ðÿäå ñëó÷àåâ, ïðèõîäèëîñü ñíà÷àëà ñòàâèòü ñòàíêè, à ïîòîì óæå ñòåíû êîðïóñîâ, íî ýíåðãèÿ è ìèíèìóì èíôðàñòðóêòóðû óæå áûëè.
À â îáùåì, ÿ ñ Âàìè, êîíå÷íî ñîãëàñåí, òåìà ýâàêóàöèè æä¸ò ïîäðîáíîãî è áåñïðèñòðàñòíîãî èññëåäîâàíèÿ, à ðåçóëüòàòû, äîëæíû áûòü èçëîæåíû, ïî âîçìîæíîñòè, â äîñòóïíîé ôîðìå, ÷òîáû ïðî÷èòàòü ìîãëè íå òîëüêî ñâèõíóòûå ëþáèòåëè.
Ñ îñòàëüíûìè ìîèìè ïîñûëàìè, ÿ ïîëàãàþ, Âû ñîãëàñíû.
P.S. Ýïèçîä, ñ îáñòðåëîì «òðîéêè» ñ ðàçíåñ¸ííûì áðîíèðîâàíèåì, ÿ âûâåñèë, ïîëàãàÿ, ÷òî îí áóäåò èíòåðåñåí Âàì. Ñâèðèí, äîñòàòî÷íî ïîäðîáíî îïèñûâàåò ìîìåíòû ñî âçâîäÿùåé áðîí¸é.
#37

panzerknacker
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 10 2008 17:00:22
 èñêóññòâå ýòà òåìà íàøëà îòðàæåíèå ó Áîíäàðåâà: «Áàòàëüîíû ïðîñÿò îãíÿ», ñþæåò ýòîé êíèãè âîø¸ë, îäíîé èç ëèíèé, â ôèëüì «Ïðîðûâ» - âòîðóþ ÷àñòü êèíîýïîïåè «Îñâîáîæäåíèå»,

Íàîáîðîò "áàòàëüîíû" - ýòî ðåìåéê "Îñâîáîæäåíèÿ", òîëüêî âìåñòî Êèåâà è áóêðèíñêîãî ïëàöäàðìà ó Îçåðîâà, ñäåëàëè êàêîé-òî Äðåâíåðå÷åíñê èëè êàê åãî òàì.
#38

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 10 2008 19:23:23
Staryi_prapor ïèñàë(à):
Ðàçóìååòñÿ, íèêòî «íàðî÷íî» ÂÑÞ êàäðîâóþ àðìèþ íå ïîäñòàâëÿë! È Ïåðåñëåãèí íè÷åãî ïîäîáíîãî íå ïèñàë.

ß Ïåðåñëåãèíà íå ÷èòàë, ïîýòîìó ÿ îðèåíòèðóþñü òîëüêî íà òî, ÷òî âû ïèøåòå. Âû èìåííî òàê è íàïèñàëè, ïîýòîìó ÿ òàê è îòâåòèë.
×òî êàñàåòñÿ àðìèé ïðèêðûòèÿ, òî âîîáùå-òî èçíà÷àëüíî ïëàíîâ ïðèíåñòè èõ â æåðòâó íåò. Âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå â ïîëíîì ñîñòàâå â êîòëàõ, êàê ýòî ïðîèçîøëî â äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè. Òî, ÷òî ýòè àðìèè äîëæíû ïîíåñòè ïîòåðè - ýòî òàê, íî, ñîáñòâåííî, ëþáàÿ àðìèÿ, ââåäåííàÿ â ñðàæåíèå ïîíåñåò ïîòåðè. Åùå ðàç ïîâòîðþ, ÷òî ïëàíîâ ïðèíåñòè àðìèè â æåðòó íå áûëî.

Âû ïèøåòå: - «äëÿ ýòîãî íàäî ïðåäóñìîòðåòü ÄÎÐÎÃÈ, à ïîñêîëüêó ýâàêóàöèÿ øëà â îñåííèé ïåðèîä, òî äîðîãè äîëæíû áûòü õîðîøèìè, èíà÷å ðàñïóòèöà âñå îñòàíîâèò». Âûíóæäåí âîçðàçèòü. Ó íàñ íå Àìåðèêà, ñ å¸ õàéâýÿìè è àâòîòðàíñïîðòîì. Ó íàñ ê ëþáîìó, ïðàêòè÷åñêè, çàâîäó ïîäâåäåíà «æåëåçêà», ýâàêóàöèÿ âåëàñü ïî æ.-ä. è íà óæå ñóùåñòâóþùèå ïëîùàäè çàâîäîâ. Êîíå÷íî, â ðÿäå ñëó÷àåâ, ïðèõîäèëîñü ñíà÷àëà ñòàâèòü ñòàíêè, à ïîòîì óæå ñòåíû êîðïóñîâ, íî ýíåðãèÿ è ìèíèìóì èíôðàñòðóêòóðû óæå áûëè.

Âî-ïåðâûõ, ðàçî÷àðóþ âàñ.  ÑØÀ ãðóçîîáîðîò ïî æ.ä. âåñüìà çíà÷èòåëåí, ãîðàçäî áîëüøå, ÷åì ïàññàæèðîîáîðîò. Àìåðèêàíöû íå äóðàêè è äåíåæêè õîðîøî óìåþò ñ÷èòàòü.

Âî-âòîðûõ, ÿ ãîâîðèë ïðî äîðîãè íå äëÿ ýâàêóàöèè, à äëÿ îñóùåñòâëåíèÿ ñòðîèòåëüñòâà è ïîñëåäóþùåãî ñíàáæåíèÿ íîâîãî çàâîäà è çàâîä÷àí, à òàêæå èõ ñåìåé. Îäíîé "æåëåçêîé" òóò äåëà íå ðåøèòü íèêàê, ïîòîìó ÷òî êðîìå ñàìîé æåëäîðîãè íóæíû âàãîíû à, ãëàâíîå, ïàðîâîçû, êîè áûëè òîòàëüíî çàäåéñòâîâàíû â âîåííûõ ïåðåâîçêàõ è ýâàêóàöèè. äà è íå êî âñÿêîìó êîëõîçó ïðîâåäåíà æåëåçíàÿ äîðîãà. À ãäå æðàòâó áðàòü äëÿ åæåäíåâíîãî ïèòàíèÿ íåñêîëüêèõ òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê?
Òàê âîò, ÷èòàÿ ñîâêîâûå âûõîëîùåííûå öåíçóðîé âîñïîìèíàíèÿ òî è äåëî íàòûêàåøüñÿ íà ðàññêàçû î òîì, êàê "â ÷èñòîì ïîëå" çà äâà ìåñÿöà ïîÿâèëñÿ çàâîä.
Ýòî ëîæü è èìåííî îá ýòîì ÿ ñêàçàë.

P.S. Ýïèçîä, ñ îáñòðåëîì «òðîéêè» ñ ðàçíåñ¸ííûì áðîíèðîâàíèåì, ÿ âûâåñèë, ïîëàãàÿ, ÷òî îí áóäåò èíòåðåñåí Âàì. Ñâèðèí, äîñòàòî÷íî ïîäðîáíî îïèñûâàåò ìîìåíòû ñî âçâîäÿùåé áðîí¸é.
Ðàä çà íåãî.
#41
vzrivnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 16 2008 09:59:18
×èòàþ, ÷èòàþ, ÷èòàþ - è íèêàê íå ìîãó âñòðåòèòü íîðìàëüíîå îáúÿñíåíèå äåéñòâèé Â.Ñóâîðîâà. Ïîëåìèêà, êîòîðóþ îí ðàçâåðíóë â äåéñòâèòåëüíîñòè òàêîâîé è íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ, è îöåíêà êîòîðîé îí çàñëóæèë âîîáùå âûõîäèò çà ðàìêè "âðåò - íå âðåò". Îí ÷åëîâåê î÷åíü óìíûé (åãî êàðüåðà - òîìó íàãëÿäíûé ïðèìåð), ïîýòîìó âñå â åãî ïðîèçâåäåíèÿõ - è ìàíåðà ïèñüìà è ñòèëü è àãðåññèâíàÿ ýìîöèîíàëüíîñòü è íåëåñòíûå ýïèòåòû, è äàæå õóäîæåñòâåííîå îôîðìëåíèå èçäàíèé - âñå ãîâîðèò î òùàòåëüíî ñïëàíèðîâàííîé àãðåññèè. Ïðîòèâ êîãî? Äà ïðîòèâ ìåíÿ ëè÷íî. Äà ïðîòèâ òîãî, êòî ïðî÷èòàâ åãî êíèãè âñòàë íà åãî ñòîðîíó è ïîññîðèëñÿ ñ äåäîì-ôðîíòîâèêîì, áàáêîé-âäîâîé, äÿäåé-áåæåíöåì. È åñëè òàêèõ â íàøåì, ðîññèéñêîì îáùåñòâå - áîëüøèíñòâî - òî çíà÷èò è ïðîòèâ îáùåñòâà. Ïðîòèâ íàðîäà. Ïîýòîìó Ñóâîðîâ - íå âðóí, íå èñêàçèòåëü èñòîðèè, îí ïðîñòî âðàã, âðàã, êîòîðûé èñïîëüçóåò ëþáîå îðóæèå, òîëüêî áû äîáèòñÿ ñâîåé öåëè. À âîò êàêàÿ ó íåãî öåëü, ìíå ïîêà, ê ñîæàëåíèþ, íåïîíÿòíî... Êàê ãîâîðèë Ãåááåëüñ "÷åì ÷óäîâèùíåé ëîæü, òåì ëåã÷å â íåå ïîâåðèòü..."
#49
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 17 2008 17:34:56
ß íèêîèì îáðàçîì íå ñ÷èòàþ Ðåçóíà «àëüòåðíàòèâùèêîì»! Ñåé ñóáúåêò ïèøåò â æàíðå äîëãîèãðàþùåé ïîëèòè÷åñêîé ïðîâîêàöèè (ïîïóòíî ïûòàÿñü ïîäñòðàõîâàòüñÿ îò âèñÿùåãî íàä íèì âîçìåçäèÿ, íó è ñðóáèòü òîëèêó áàáëà íà ïèâî). Óâàæàþùèé ñåáÿ «àëüòåðíàòèâùèê» îáðàùàåòñÿ ñ ôàêòàìè êàê íàñòîÿùèé èññëåäîâàòåëü, ÷åãî â íàøåì ñëó÷àå íèêîèì îáðàçîì íå íàáëþäàåòñÿ.
ß öåëèêîì è ïîëíîñòüþ ñîãëàñåí ñ vzrivnickom – ýòî ïîëçó÷àÿ àãðåññèÿ â èíôîðìàöèîííîì ïðîñòðàíñòâå! Àãðåññèÿ ïðîòèâ íàñ è, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, ïðîòèâ íàøèõ äåòåé. È áîðîòüñÿ ñ íèì íàäî èìåííî â èíôîðìàöèîííîì ïðîñòðàíñòâå. Ðàçîáëà÷àòü! È ïî ôàêòè÷åñêèì, îøèáêàì, ïåðåä¸ðãèâàíèÿì, è ïî ïðÿìîé ëæè, è, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, ïî ëåæàùèì çà íèìè ïîñûëàì, äîëæåíñòâóþùèì, âîçäåéñòâîâàòü íà íàøå âîñïðèÿòèå èñòîðèè. Ðåçóí ïèøåò â ðàñ÷¸òå, â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü, íà ÷åëîâåêà, äàë¸êîãî îò âîåííîé èñòîðèè è âîåííîé òåõíèêè, è íå èìåþùåãî, óæå èììóíèòåòà ê ïîäîáíûì ïèñàíèÿì. ß óæå ïèñàë, ÷òî, ïî÷òè, â êàæäîì êíèæíîì ìàãàçèíå, åñòü ïîëêà ñ Ðåçóíîì. Çíà÷èò åñòü ñïðîñ. Çíà÷èò íàäî áîðîòüñÿ! Ïîêàçûâàòü åãî «ìåòîäó». Êñòàòè, êðàñèâûé ïðèìåð.  «Ëåäîêîëå», îí àêêóðàòíåíüêî òàê ïîäâîäèò ÷èòàòåëÿ ê ìûñëè, ÷òî ÊÒ-28 íà Ò-28 è Ò-35 êàëèáðîì 76,2ìì ëó÷øå, ÷åì KwK 7.5/70 êàëèáðîì 75ìì íà «Ïàíòåðå»: - « õîòü íà 1,2ìì íî áîëüøå. Ìåëî÷ü, à ïðèÿòíî». ×åëîâåê, íå çíàþùèé, î ÷¸ì èä¸ò ðå÷ü, âïîëíå ìîæåò è ïîâåðèòü, à, âåäü ÊÒ-28 – ýòî òàíêîâàÿ âåðñèÿ ïîëêîâîé ïóøêè îáð. 27 ãîäà, ïðåäñòàâëÿþùàÿ, èç ñåáÿ óðåçàííóþ äî 16,5 êàë. ïîëåâóþ ïóøêó îáð. 1900 ãîäà. À KwK 7.5/70, ÿâëÿåòñÿ, ñàìîé ìîùíîé ñåðèéíîé ïóøêîé â ñâî¸ì êàëèáðå, è âûïóñêàëàñü äî 68 ãîäà ôðàíöóçàìè, óñòàíàâëèâàâøèìè, å¸ íà òàíê ÀÌÕ-13, ÁÐÌ «Ïàíàð» ÅÂR-75, â áàøíå RL-10, è ïîñòàâëÿâøèìè å¸ Èçðàèëþ äëÿ ìîäåðíèçàöèè òàíêà «Øåðìàí» Ì.50. Íà÷àëüíàÿ ñêîðîñòü ñíàðÿäà ó ÊÒ-28 – 380 ì/ñåê, à ó KwK 7.5/70 – 950 – 1000 ì/ñåê. KwK 7.5/70, âìåñòå ñ òàíêîì ÀÌÕ-13 è «Øåðìàí» Ì.50, ñîñòîèò íà âîîðóæåíèè äî ñèõ ïîð.
Âîò âòîðîé ïðèìåð áîëåå, ÷åì âîëüíîãî îáðàùåíèÿ Ðåçóíà ñ ôàêòàìè ïðè äîêàçàòåëüñòâå ñâîèõ ïîñûëîâ. «Ãåðìàíñêèå êîíñòðóêòîðû äîïóñòèëè íåïðîñòèòåëüíóþ îøèáêó: äâèãàòåëü òàíêà îíè óñòàíàâëèâàëè íà êîðìå, à ñèëîâóþ ïåðåäà÷ó - â ïåðåäíåé ÷àñòè òàíêà. Ýòó æå îøèáêó äîïóñòèëè êîíñòðóêòîðû áðèòàíñêèõ, àìåðèêàíñêèõ è ÿïîíñêèõ òàíêîâ...». Ðåçóí îïÿòü ïèøåò â ðàñ÷¸òå íà ëþäåé äàëåêèõ îò èñòîðèè òàíêîñòðîåíèÿ. Áðèòàíñêèå òàíêè, çà èñêëþ÷åíèåì ìàëûõ ïóëåì¸òíûõ, ñòðîèëèñü ïî êëàññè÷åñêîé ñõåìå. È ïåõîòíûå - «Ìàòèëüäà», «Ìàòèëüäà II», «Âàëåíòàéí», «×åð÷èëëü», è êðåéñåðñêèå – «Êðóñåéäåð», «Êåâåëèð», «Êðîìâåëü/Êåíòàâð», «Êîìåòà», âñå îíè èìåëè îòäåëåíèå óïðàâëåíèÿ ñïåðåäè, äâèãàòåëü è òðàíñìèññèþ – ñçàäè, âåäóùèå çâ¸çäî÷êè ñçàäè!!!
#51
Áàòîíàòîð
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jul 27 2008 21:58:31
Èçâèíèòå, ÷òî âòîðãàþñü â âàø äèàëîã, íî â îòâåò íà íåãî ìîãó ïðåäëîæèòü äîâîëüíî çàáàâíóþ èãðó ïî òèïó äåòñêîé:"Íàéäè äåñÿòü îòëè÷èé". Ñóòü å¸ ñîñòîèò â òîì, ÷òîáû, âçÿâ òåêñò Â.Ðåçóíà, ñðàâíèòü åãî ñ îðèãèíàëîì, êîòîðûé îí ñàì æå è ïðèâîäèò (ÿ íå ãîâîðþ óæ î îá îôèöèàëüíûõ èñòî÷íèêàõ ëþáûõ ñòðàí, íà êîòîðûå îí òàê ëþáèò ññûëàòüñÿ). Ñìåþ âàñ çàâåðèòü: îòëè÷èé íàéä¸òå, ïîæàëóé, ïîáîëåå ÷åì 10. Âîò, ñîáñòâåííî, è ðåøåíèå âàøåãî ñïîðà.  êà÷åñòâå ïîñêðèïòóìà: ÿ ñàì, ïðî÷èòàâ Ñóâîðîâà â 1991 ãîäó, êîãäà ìíå áûëî 16 ëåò, áûë ïîðàæ¸í òàêèì ãëóáîêèì çíàíèåì ìàòåðèàëà î Âòîðîé Ìèðîâîé âîéíå Âèêòîðîì Ñóâîðîâûì, íî ïîñëå, óâëåêàÿñü âîåííîé èñòîðèåé, ÿ ïîíÿë, ÷òî íå âñ¸ òàê ïðîñòî.
#56
sanec
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 15 2008 10:35:36
õîòåëîñü áû çàäàòü òàêîé âîïðîñ ïî Ðåçóíó, à êàê îòíîñèòüñÿ ê åãî îöåíêå ðåçóëüòàòîâ ôèíñêîé âîéíû, î òîì ÷òî â òåõ óñëîâèÿõ íå îäíà äðóãàÿ àðìèÿ íå ñìîãëà áû ïîâòîðèòü ïîäîáíûé ïîäâèã è ïðîðâàòü ÓÐû â çèìíèõ óñëîâèÿõ ôèíñêèõ-êàðåëüñêèõ ëåñîâ? À ñîâåòñêîå ðóêîâîäñòâî íå ñóìåëî äðóãèì ñòàíàì îáüÿñíèòü êàêîé ïîäâèã ñîâåðøèë â ýòîé âîéíå ðóññêèé ñîëäàò è ïîñòàðàëîñü çàáûòü ïðî ýòó âîéíó.
Õîòåëîñü áû óñëûøàòü âàøå ìíåíèå
#90
StreloK
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 15 2008 12:22:15
Âñ¸ ïîçíàåòñÿ â ñðàâíåíèè. ×òîáû ïîíÿòü ïðàâ Ñóâîðîâ èëè íåò, íóæíî íàéòè â èñòîðèè âîéí òàêèå æå óêðåïëåíèÿ â òàêîé æå êëèìàòè÷åñêîé çîíå è òàêóþ æå àðìèþ, êîòîðàÿ áóäåò ýòè óêðåïëåíèÿ øòóðìîâàòü, è ñðàâíèòü äåéñòâèÿ Êðàñíîé Àðìèè è äåéñòâèÿ àðìèè ãèïîòåòè÷åñêîé, âîò è âñå.Àíàëèç ýòîãî ñðàâíåíèÿ è ïîêàæåò õîðîøî èëè ïëîõî âîåâàëà Êðàñíàÿ Àðìèÿ.
#91
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 15 2008 16:52:51
Ïî-ìîåìó, ñ ìîåé ñòîðîíû áóäåò ãëóïî óìíè÷àòü, âðîäå íåêîòîðûõ ïðåäûäóùèõ àâòîðîâ, êîòîðûå íå òî, ÷òîáû â òàíêå ñèäåëè, à è â àðìèè-òî íå ñëóæèëè! À ñêàçàòü ÿ õî÷ó âîò ÷òî. Íåäàâíî ïîñïîðèë ïî ïüÿíîé ëàâî÷êå ñî ñâîèì îäíîãðóïïíèêîì (ÿ ó÷óñü â Ïîäìîñêîâüå íà þðèäè÷åñêîì) ïî ïîâîäó òàíêîâ - â êàêîì ãîäó ó íåìöåâ ïîÿâèëñÿ "Òèãð". ß óãàäàë, íî íå â ýòîì äåëî. Îäíîãðóïïíèê óòâåðæäàë, ÷òî ÂÑÅ íàøè ïðåäâîåííûå òàíêè áûëè ã**íî.  êà÷åñòâå àðãóìåíòà îí ïðèâîëîê êðàñèâî èçäàííûé ñïðàâî÷íèê ïî áðîíåòåõíèêå êàêîãî-òî èíîñòðàíöà, ÿ - êíèãó Ì. Áàðÿòèíñêîãî "Ñîâåòñêèå òàíêè â áîþ". Ïðîëèñòàâ èíîñòðàííóþ êíèãó, ÿ óæàñíóëñÿ.  ñòàòüå ïðî íàø ÁÒ-7 ôîòîãðàôèÿ áûëà ÁÒ-2, à îïèñàí ÁÒ-5 - çà òî÷íîñòü òàíêîâ íå ðó÷àþñü, íî ñìûñë èìåííî òàêîâ: â îäíîé ñòàòüå íàìåøàíî 3 òàíêà!  êîíöå àâòîð ÷åñòíî ñîçíàëñÿ, ÷òî íå èìååò äîñòóïà ê ÒÒÕ ñîâåòñêèõ òàíêîâ. Âûâîä: êàê áû êðàñèâî íå âûãëÿäåëè çàïàäíûå èçäàíèÿ, îíè íåîáúåêòèâíû! ×èòàéòå ëó÷øå íàøè èçäàíèÿ è ìàòåðèàëû.
#96

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 15 2008 18:46:45
Ýòî åùå îäíà èëëþñòðàöèÿ ê ìîåìó òåçèñó â ñòàòüå, ãäå ÿ ãîâîðèë ïðî çàïðåäåëüíûå ñêîðîñòè ÁÒ, î êîòîðûõ ãîâîðèò Ðåçóí, ññûëàÿñü íà "ëó÷øèõ çàïàäíûõ ýêñïåðòîâ"
#98
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 23 2008 15:35:20
Ãîñïîäà, à ñêàæèòå, ïîæàëóéñòà: ÷òî âû äóìàåòå ïî ïîâîäó êíèã Ðåçóíà "Îñâîáîäèòåëü" è "Àêâàðèóì"? Ìíå îñîáåííî èíòåðåñíî - ïðàâäèâî ëè îí èçîáðàçèë íàøè òîãäàøíèå ñïåöïîäðàçäåëåíèÿ è ðàáîòó ðåçèäåíòóðû çà ãðàíèöåé? Íàâðàë, íåáîñü, êàê âñåãäà. Íî åñëè ýòî íå "ïî òåìå", òîãäà íå îòâå÷àéòå.
Äà, êñòàòè! StrelkU áîëüøàÿ ïðîñüáà íå áåñïîêîèòüñÿ! Ìíå õâàòèëî åãî êîììåíòàðèåâ ê ðàññêàçó î ðàçâåä÷èêàõ!
#144

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 23 2008 18:06:42
ß ê ñïåöñëóæáàì íå îòíîøóñü, ïîýòîìó ìíå ñëîæíî ñóäèòü. Ïðàâäà, ÿ ÷èòàë êîììåíòàðèè ëþäåé, êîòîðûå â ñïåöñëóæáàõ ïðîðàáîòàëè íå îäèí ãîä. Ïèøóò, ÷òî âðåò è ðàáîòó ñïåöñëóæá ïîêàçûâàåò òàê, êàê ïîíèìàåò ïðèíöèï äâèãàòåëÿ âíóòðåííåãî ñãîðàíèÿ ñëóøàòåëüíèöà âîñêðåñíîé øêîëû.
×òî êàñàåòñÿ Îñâîáîäòåëÿ, òî ðàçãèëüäÿéñòâî è áóäíè Ñîâåòñêîé Àðìèè ïîêàçàíû ïðàâèëüíî. Õîòÿ òóò íå íàäî áûòü ñåìè ïÿäåé âî ëáó. Êàæäûé, êòî ñëóæèë õîòÿ áû ñðî÷íóþ â ÑÀ èëè ÐÀ ìîæåò ðàññêàçàòü âñå òî æå ñàìîå. Ëè÷íî ìíå áûëî ÷èòàòü çàáàâíî, íî íå î÷åíü èíòåðåñíî - ÿ âñå ýòî çíàë è áåç Ðåçóíà.
#146
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 23 2008 18:38:04
Íó, çà âðåìÿ ìîåé "ñðî÷êè" ÿ, íàïðèìåð íà "ãóáå" íè ðàçó íå áûë, ïîýòîìó ïî ïîâîäó îïèñàííûõ Ðåçóíîì èçäåâàòåëüñòâ íà îíîé ñêàçàòü íè÷åãî íå ìîãó. Îò ñîñëóæèâöåâ òîæå íè÷åãî ïîäîáíîãî íå ñëûøàë. À òàê - â ïðèíöèïå, âñå êàê ó âñåõ. Äà÷ó ãåíåðàëàì êîïàë, âåðíåå, âñêàïûâàë. Íîñ è ÷åëþñòü ñëîìàëè. Ëàäíî, íàñ÷åò "Îñâîáîäèòåëÿ" ÿñíî. À "Àêâàðèóì"? ß òàê ïîíèìàþ, ÷òî òóò îïÿòü îñîçíàííîå ââåäåíèå íåèñêóøåííîãî ÷èòàòåëÿ â çàáëóæäåíèå - ïîñìîòðèòå, ìîë, êàêóþ ñâèðåïóþ âîåííóþ ìàøèíó ãîòîâû âûïóñòèòü ðóññêèå íà Çàïàä! ×òî òàì èõ ðåçèäåíòóðà âûòâîðÿåò! À ïî÷åìó, èíòåðåñíî, íå áûëî îïðîâåðæåíèÿ ýòîé êíèãè?  îñíîâíîì îñïàðèâàþò "Ëåäîêîë", "Ïîñëåäíþþ ðåñïóáëèêó" è ò.ï. Îäíà êíèãà Ïîìîãàéáî (ýòî èñòîðèê òàêîé), çàáûë íàçâàíèå - ïî îáúåìó ïðåâûøàåò âñå íàïèñàííîå Ðåçóíîì! Ïî "Àêâàðèóìó" äàæå ìèíè-ñåðèàë ñíÿëè.
#147
Staryi_prapor
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Aug 23 2008 18:46:33
 îäíîì èç ïàññàæåé àêâàðèóìà îí ïèøåò, ÷òî ëûæè ñïåöíàçîâöåâ ïîäáèòû ëèñüèì ìåõîì, ÷òîáû íå ïðîñêàëüçûâàëè íàçàä ïðè õîäüáå. ß äóðåþ! Ëþáîé, êòî æèë â Ñèáèðè, èëè ïðîñòî ÷èòàë êíèãè î ñèáèðñêîé îõîòå, çíàåò, ÷òî äëÿ ýòîãî ïðèìåíÿåòñÿ øêóðû ñ ãîëåíåé ñåâåðíîãî îëåíÿ èëè ëîñÿ è íàçûâàþòñÿ îíè êàìóñ. ß ïîíèìàþ, êîíå÷íî, ÷òî æèòåëè Âåëèêîáðèòàíèè ýòîãî çíàòü íå ìîãóò ert. ìîæíî âåøàòü ëàïøó!
#148
zanuuda
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Sep 06 2008 10:40:10
Âîò, áëèí, ïîíàïèñàë òóò ïî ïîâîäó ñêàçîê äåäóøêè ðåçóíà, à ñòðàíèöà ãëþêíóëà è íè÷åãî íå ñîõðàíèëîñü..... Âêðàòöå ïåðåñêàçûâàÿ ñîäåðçàíèå íàïèñàíîãî. Ðåçóí áàíàëüíûé ïèñàòåëü - ñêàçî÷íèê ðàäè äåíåã. Êàê ïåðåáåæ÷èê îí íè÷åãî íå ñòîèë. Íî ÿ åìó áëàãîäàðåí, ÷òî îí ðàçáóäèë äåòåé, êîòîðûå âûðîñëè â ìóæåé è ñàìè âûÿñíèëè, ÷òî ïî÷¸ì. Íå âñå ïðàâäà, åñòü ëþáèòåëè ñêàçêè åñòü.
#157
Evgen1
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 21 2008 19:20:38
Ïî ìîåìó àâòîð ñòàòüè "íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê" ïðîñòî äóðàê ò.ê. ïðî÷èòàë êíèãè Ñóâîðîâà íåñêîëüêî ðàç è íè÷åãî íå ïîíÿë. Ñîâåòóþ åù¸ ðàçîê ïðî÷èòàòü.
#195

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 21 2008 23:38:06
Evgen1 ïèñàë(à):
Ïî ìîåìó àâòîð ñòàòüè "íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê" ïðîñòî äóðàê ò.ê. ïðî÷èòàë êíèãè Ñóâîðîâà íåñêîëüêî ðàç è íè÷åãî íå ïîíÿë. Ñîâåòóþ åù¸ ðàçîê ïðî÷èòàòü.

Äîðîãîé Åâãåí1! Áîëüøîå ñïàñèáî çà ñîäåðæàòåëüíóþ è ñâîåâðåìåííóþ êðèòèêó! Íàêîíåö-òî íàøåëñÿ õîòü îäèí, êòî ñìîã ïðèñòðóíèòü çàðâàâøåãîñÿ àâòîðà!
Îáåùàþ, ÷òî áóäóò ïðåäïðèíÿòû ñàìûå ñóðîâûå ìåðû!
Âèíîâíûå ïîíåñóò çàñëóæåííîå íàêàçàíèå!
Àâòîð ñòàòüè áóäåò íàñèëüíî óñàæåí çà ÷òåíèå òðóäîâ Â.Ñóâîðîâà ñ ïîñëåäóþùåé ïåðåýçàìåíîâêîé.
#196
Evgen1
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 22 2008 16:06:04
Ãîñïîäèí "Î÷åíü Âàæíàÿ Ïåðñîíà"! Âèæó Âàì ïîíðàâèëîñü òî ñ ÷åãî ÿ íà÷àë îáùåíèå. Ýòî íà÷àëî ïðåäëàãàåòå Âû ñàìè (ÿ ïðî ïîðòðåò ñ ðîãàìè).
Âñå äîâîäû Âàøåé ñòàòüè ìåëêè è íè÷åãî íå ìåíÿþò. Ýòî âñåãî ëèøü ïðèäèðêè, ìåëêèå ùèïêè è íå áîëåå. Ïîñëå ïðî÷òåíèÿ ÿ ïîíÿë, ÷òî íàçâàíèå ñòàòüè - ýòî ïðî Âàñ.
ß íå áóäó "ïûòàòüñÿ íàéòè õîòü êàêîé-òî îãðåõ â âàøèõ àðãóìåíòàõ". Èõ ìíîãî, íî ÿ ýòèì çàíèìàòüñÿ íå ñòàíó. ß õîòåë òîëüêî ñêàçàòü, ÷òî ýòî íèçêî è ïîäëî ïèñàòü òàêèå ñòàòüè íå äàâàÿ âèíîâíèêó ñïîðîâ îáúÿñíèòüñÿ. ß ïðåäëàãàþ âñåãî ëèøü âûçâàòü íà ñïîð ñàìîãî Â.Ñóâîðîâà ê ñ÷àñòüþ ýòî âîçìîæíî, ó íåãî òîæå åñòü ñâîé ñàéò, è ÿ äóìàþ îí íå îòêàæåòñÿ îáúÿñíèòü ñâîè "îãðåõè" (íà ìîè ãëóïûå âîïðîñû îí îòâå÷àë). È ïåðåä íèì ïîóìíè÷àòü, ïðî áåíçèí ðàññêàçàòü è âñå òàêîå. À òî êàêàÿ-òî îäíîñòîðîííÿÿ ëàæà ïîëó÷àåòñÿ.
Åñëè Âû îòêàæåòåñü, òî çà÷åì âñå ýòî íàäî? Ïîçîðíûé ñòîëá è ðàçîáëà÷èòåëüíàÿ ñòàòüÿ. Ñòîëá åñòü, à ïîçîðèòü âûõîäèò íåêîãî. Âîçëå ñòîëáà íåò íèêîãî. Âûõîäèò Âû â ñïèíó ïëþíóëè è óáåæàëè, èëè êàê â øêîëå: íè÷åãî ñäåëàòü íå ìîæåòå - ðèñóåòå íà ïàðòå ñâîåãî "âðàãà" "ñ ðîãàìè" è âñå.
À åñëè Âàì ëåíü èëè "íå õî÷åøü íå ÷èòàé", òàê óáåðèòå ýòó ãàäîñòü èç èíòåðíåòà, ÷òîá ëþäÿì ìîçãè íå ïóäðèòü. Íó à åñëè âîîáùå íè÷åãî íå ñäåëàåòå, áóäåì ñ÷èòàòü, ÷òî Ñóâîðîâ ïðàâ. È íà ýòîì òåìó çàêðîåì.
#197

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 22 2008 16:56:35
Äîðîãîé Åâãåí1! Áîëüøîå ñïàñèáî çà òî, ÷òî îáúÿñíèëè âñþ ïîäëîñòü è íèçîñòü ýòîé ñòàòüè è ñàìîãî åå àâòîðà! Ìû âñå î÷åíü ðàäû, ÷òî åñòü åùå ëþäè, êîòîðûå ïðîäîëæàþò âåëèêîå äåëî! Ìû âñå êàê îäèí âñòàíåì íà çàùèòó! Ïóñòü ïîäëûé âðàã òðåïåùåò, ïóñòü àâòîð ýòîé ãíóñíîé ñòàòüè çíàåò, ÷òî êàðàþùèé ìå÷ ïðàâîñóäèÿ áëåñíåò íàä íèì êðàñíûì ëó÷îì!
#198
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 29 2008 15:18:05
Ïîäîæäèòå, ïîäîæäèòå, à êóäà äåëàñü çàíèìàòåëüíàÿ ïîëåìèêà ñ Evgen1 è î÷åíü ìèëîé äàìîé? Òîëüêî õîòåë ïî÷èòàòü - à íè÷åãî óæå è íåò! Åäèíñòâåííîå, ÷òî çàïîìíèë - ã-í Ïðèâàëîâ ñîãëàñåí âçÿòü ìåíÿ â "ïîäïåâàëû". Áëàãîäàðåí çà ñòîëü ëåñòíóþ îöåíêó ìîèõ ñêðîìíûõ óìñòâåííûõ óñèëèé. Áîþñü, íå ñìîãó áûòü åìó ïîëåçíûì â ýòîì êà÷åñòâå, ò.ê. íå îáëàäàþ äîñòàòî÷íûì íàáîðîì çíàíèé äëÿ âåäåíèÿ äèñêóññèé â äàííîé ðóáðèêå. Ìîåãî þðèäè÷åñêîãî îáðàçîâàíèÿ äà íåáîëüøèõ ïîçíàíèé â òåõíèêå õâàòèò ðàçâå ÷òî íà îöåíêó äîêàçàòåëüñòâ ñïîðÿùèõ ñòîðîí.
#222

panzerknacker
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 29 2008 16:01:43
Âñå ýòè áàçàðû ïîòåð ÿ ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî îôôòîïèê.
"Ïîäïåâàëîé" âàñ îïðåäåëèë òîâàðèñ÷ Ýâãåí, à Âàëåðèé ëèøü ñêàçàë, ÷òî îò òàêîãî "ïîäïåâàëû" íå îòêàçàëñÿ áû. Ïîïóòíî ïðåäëîæèë Ýâãåíó äîëæíîñòü øòàòíîãî êëîóíà
#223
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 29 2008 16:12:19
ß òóò ïîñìîòðåë - ïîëåìèêó ñî Strelkom âû òîæå óäàëèëè. ×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ, çðÿ. Ó íåãî áûëè êëàññè÷åñêèå äîâîäû äåìàãîãà-êëèêóøè. Ïî íåìó âèäíî, êàê âîçäåéñòâóåò Ðåçóí íà íåîêðåïøèå óìû (â ïëàíå âîçðàñòà). Äà è ñ ëîãèêîé ó ïàðíèøêè áûëî íå âñå â ïîðÿäêå. Dama, êîòîðàÿ ïîçæå çàøëà íà ñàéò, óïîòðåáëÿëà òèïè÷íûå äîâîäû ïîêëîííèêîâ Ðåçóíà: "îí îøèáñÿ â äåòàëÿõ, â ÃËÀÂÍÎÌ îí ïðàâ!"
#224

panzerknacker
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Oct 29 2008 16:17:34
Äà, ïîëåìèêó ñî Ñòðåëêîì òîæå ïîòåð ÿ. È âïðåäü îôôòîïèê áóäó óäàëÿòü. Ïîòîìó ÷òî åñëè ýòîãî íå äåëàòü, òî áåñåäà î÷åíü áûñòðî óâîäèòñÿ â ñòîðîíó îò îáñóæäàåìîé òåìû è ïåðåðàñòàåò âî âçàèìîïîïðåêè è îñêîðáëåíèÿ. Åñëè ó êîãî åñòü æåëàíèå, ïóñòü îòêðûâàåò â ôîðóìå îòäåëüíóþ òåìó è òàì îáñóæäàåò ýòó æèâîòðåïåùóùóþ òåìó. À â äàííîì òîïèêå îáñóæäàåòñÿ âïîëíå êîíêðåòíàÿ ñòàòüÿ.
#225
serh007
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Nov 29 2008 13:15:05
Ïðîøó ïðîùåíèÿ çà âìåøàòåëüñòâî . À ãäå óñëûøàòü ñòîðîííèêîâ Ñóâîðîâà?
#245
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Nov 29 2008 13:48:42
Èçðåäêà ìîæíî è çäåñü. Òîëüêî îáùàòüñÿ ñ íèìè íåèíòåðåñíî. Îíè âñå âàëÿò â îäíó êó÷ó, êîãäà íåò àðãóìåíòîâ - íà÷èíàåòñÿ áóðÿ ýìîöèé. Íà "íåóäîáíûå" âîïðîñû íå îòâå÷àþò, ïóñêàÿñü â äåìàãîãèþ. Èíîãäà íà÷èíàþò ïîëèâàòü ãðÿçüþ àâòîðîâ ñàéòà çà èíàêîìûñëèå. Ñ ëîãèêîé ó íèõ ïðîáëåìû. Õîòÿ, ÷òî èíòåðåñíî - ãîâîðÿò îäíî è òî æå. Òóò òàêèå äåáàòû áûëè! Æàëü, ÷òî âñå ïîòåðëè.
#246
Ãåíðèõ
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 11 2008 09:58:45
Ãíåâíàÿ îòïîâåäü îõàèâàòåëÿì Ñóâîðîâà.
Ãîñïîäà, ó âàñ ñ íèì ðàçíûé ìàñøòàá ìîòèâàöèè.
Ìîòèâ Ñóâîðîâà: "Âîð äîëæåí ñèäåòü â òþðüìå! È ëþäÿì íå âàæíî, êàê ÿ åãî òóäà óïåêó".
Îí ñ÷èòàåò, îí óáåæäåí íà 1000% â òîì, ÷òî â ïîãîíå çà âñåìèðíûì ëåâûì áëåôîì êðàñíîïóçûå åäâà íå óãðîáèëè ñòðàíó. Îí ñ÷èòàåò, ÷òî ýòèõ ïîäëåöîâ íàäî ïðèãâîçäèòü ê âå÷íîìó ïîçîðíîìó ñòîëáó, äàæå åñëè äëÿ ýòîãî ïðèäåòñÿ ãäå-òî ïåðåãíóòü ñ äîêàçàòåëüñòâàìè.
×òî áû ïîíÿòü Ñóâîðîâà, íàäî ïîìíèòü, ÷òî îí íå ïðîñòî ïåðåáåæ÷èê. Îí áûë îôèöåð, íîñèë ïîãîíû è ïåðåä íèì ñòàâèëè ðåàëüíûå áîåâûå çàäà÷è. Ýòî çàñòàâëÿåò ñëóæèâîãî äóìàòü, êàê åå âûïîëíèòü.  ýòîì ïëàíå îí îòëè÷àåòñÿ îò êàïèòàíîâ è ïîëêîâíèêîâ òàåæíûõ ãàðíèçîíîâ, òÿíóùèõ ëÿìêó òîëüêî íà ó÷åíèÿõ. Ãîâîðþ ýòî êàê áûâøèé ñëåäàê â ñèñòåìå ÎÂÄ. Êîãäà ìû áðàëè îòêðîâåííûõ ïððåñòóïíèêîâ, ìàëî êòî èç íàñ èíòåðåñîâàëñÿ ïðåçóìïöèåé íåâèíîâíîñòè. Ëþáèòåëÿì âûèñêèâàòü íåòî÷íîñòè òàíêîêèëëîìåòðîâ è ìîòî÷àñîâ â ðàáîòàõ Ñóâîðîâà çàÿâëÿþ: äëÿ âàñ ãëàâíîå ïîêàçàòü ñâîþ "åðóäèöèþ", à äëÿ Ñóâîðîâà- âûòàùèòü ãíèëü íà âñåîáùåå îáîçðåíèå.
#260
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 11 2008 14:55:20
1. ×òî çíà÷èò: "Ñóâîðîâ óáåæäåí"? Îí âàì ýòî ñàì ñêàçàë? È ÷òî îçíà÷àåò òåðìèí "ìàñøòàá ìîòèâàöèè"? ×òî åìó ìîæíî âðàòü íà êàæäîì øàãó, ÷òîáû ñîîáùèòü "ãëàâíîå"?
2. Ñ òåì, ÷òî Ðåçóí óìûøëåííî èñêàæàåò èñòîðè÷åñêèå ôàêòû, âû, ÿ òàê ïîíÿë, äàæå íå ñïîðèòå.
3. Ïðè ÷åì òóò ðåàëüíûå áîåâûå çàäà÷è7 ×åëîâåê íàïèñàë êíèãè. Ïîíÿòíîå äåëî, êîãäà ïèøåò ïðîôåññèîíàë â ñâîåé îáëàñòè, äîâåðèÿ ê ïðîèçâåäåíèþ áîëüøå. Êíèãè, êàê ÿ ïîíÿë, íå ñîäåðæàò íè îäíîãî ñëîâà ïðàâäû. Êàê æå òàêèì îáðàçîì ìîæíî "âûòàùèòü ãíèëü íà âñåîáùåå îáîçðåíèå"?
4. Ðàç óæ âû çàãîâîðèëè î ñâîåì ãåðîè÷åñêîì ïðîøëîì, òî ìîãó îòâåòèòü, ÷òî òîò æå V_P, êàê ÿ ïîíÿë, âîåâàë â áðîíåòàíêîâûõ ÷àñòÿõ. ß â áîåâûõ äåéñòâèÿõ íå ó÷àñòâîâàë, íî â àðìèè ñëóæèë, è ìîé îáùèé ñòàæ ðàáîòû â ÌÂÄ ñîñòàâëÿåò 8 ëåò. Òîëüêî ðàáîòà â ïðàâîîõðàíèòåëüíûõ îðãàíàõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì âàøåé ïðàâîòû íèêîèì îáðàçîì íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ. Åñëè áû âû áûëè èñòîðèê - òóò äðóãîå äåëî. Òå æå èñòîðèêè, êñòàòè, îïðîâåðãàþò Ðåçóíà.
#262
Ãåíðèõ
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 07:09:41
1. «×òî çíà÷èò: "Ñóâîðîâ óáåæäåí"? Îí âàì ýòî ñàì ñêàçàë? È ÷òî îçíà÷àåò òåðìèí "ìàñøòàá ìîòèâàöèè"? ×òî åìó ìîæíî âðàòü íà êàæäîì øàãó, ÷òîáû ñîîáùèòü "ãëàâíîå"?

«Óáåæäåí»
Ïî÷èòàéòå åãî êíèãè íå ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ óñâîåíèÿ òåõí.èíôîðìàöèè, à òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ñëîãà è ñòèëÿ. Åãî óáåæäåííîñòü íå âûçûâàåò ñîìíåíèé.

«Âðàòü íà êàæäîì øàãó»?
ßâíî òóò ïåðåãíóëè.


2. «Ñ òåì, ÷òî Ðåçóí óìûøëåííî èñêàæàåò èñòîðè÷åñêèå ôàêòû, âû, ÿ òàê ïîíÿë, äàæå íå ñïîðèòå»
«óìûøëåííî èñêàæàåò ôàêòû»?
ß áû íàçâàë ýòî «äîïóñêàåò íåòî÷íîñòè â êàêèõ-òî äåòàëÿõ» èëè «ïîäãîíÿåò ôàêòû ïîä òåîðèþ».
 ïðàâå åñòü ïîíÿòèå «îòíîñèìîñòü äîêàçàòåëüñòâ». Åñëè êàêîé-òî ôàêò íå êàñàåòñÿ ñóòè äåëà, ñóä åãî íå ðàññìàòðèâàåò.  äàííîì ñëó÷àå, åñëè êàêàÿ-òî òåõíè÷åñêàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ Ñóâîðîâà íå ïîäòâåðæäàåò åãî ãëàâíóþ òåîðèþ, òî åå ïðîñòî íå íóæíî ïðèíèìàòü ê ñâåäåíèþ, îíà ëèøíÿÿ. Ò.å. Ñóâîðîâó ïðîñòî íå íóæíî áûëî åå ïðèâîäèòü. Îáúåêòèâíûé ñóäüÿ åìó áû ñêàçàë: «Âîò ýòîò äàííûé ôàêò íè÷åãî íå äîêàçûâàåò, ÿ åãî èñêëþ÷àþ èç ìàòåðèàëîâ». Òîëüêî–òî è âñåãî. Ëèøíèé äîêóìåíò, íå áîëåå òîãî. À ïðîòèâíèêè Ñóâîðîâà óæå íà÷èíàþò õîðîâîå ïåòü: «Âðåò, ôàëüñèôèöèðóåò, èñêàæàåò».
Íè÷åãî îí íå âðåò. Ïðîñòî ïðèâîäèò íå íóæíûå («íå îòíîñèìûå ê äåëó», èëè íå ïðîâåðåííûå, ïîýòîìó ëèøíèå) äîêàçàòåëüñòâà, è òåì ñàìûì ïîäñòàâëÿåò ñåáÿ (ñèðå÷ü ñâîþ ãëàâíóþ èäåþ) ïîä íåçàñëóæåííûé óäàð.



3.» Ïðè ÷åì òóò ðåàëüíûå áîåâûå çàäà÷è7 ×åëîâåê íàïèñàë êíèãè. Ïîíÿòíîå äåëî, êîãäà ïèøåò ïðîôåññèîíàë â ñâîåé îáëàñòè, äîâåðèÿ ê ïðîèçâåäåíèþ áîëüøå. Êíèãè, êàê ÿ ïîíÿë, íå ñîäåðæàò íè îäíîãî ñëîâà ïðàâäû. Êàê æå òàêèì îáðàçîì ìîæíî "âûòàùèòü ãíèëü íà âñåîáùåå îáîçðåíèå"?
«Åãî êíèãè íå ñîäåðæàòü íè ñëîâà ïðàâäû»?
Í-äà… Äàæå íå çíàþ ÷òî îòâåòèòü íà ýòî…


4. «Ðàç óæ âû çàãîâîðèëè î ñâîåì ãåðîè÷åñêîì ïðîøëîì, òî ìîãó îòâåòèòü, ÷òî òîò æå V_P, êàê ÿ ïîíÿë, âîåâàë â áðîíåòàíêîâûõ ÷àñòÿõ. ß â áîåâûõ äåéñòâèÿõ íå ó÷àñòâîâàë, íî â àðìèè ñëóæèë, è ìîé îáùèé ñòàæ ðàáîòû â ÌÂÄ ñîñòàâëÿåò 8 ëåò. Òîëüêî ðàáîòà â ïðàâîîõðàíèòåëüíûõ îðãàíàõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì âàøåé ïðàâîòû íèêîèì îáðàçîì íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ. Åñëè áû âû áûëè èñòîðèê - òóò äðóãîå äåëî. Òå æå èñòîðèêè, êñòàòè, îïðîâåðãàþò Ðåçóíà.»

Ðàáîòà â ïðàâîîõðàíèòåëüíûõ îðãàíàõ, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì ïðàâîòû. Äîâîä áûë ïðèâåäåí ïî äðóãîìó âîïðîñó: ÿ îòïðàâèë çà ðåøåòêó îêîëî 150 ÷åëîâåê, è î÷åíü ÷àñòî, ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ, íå âñå è íå âñåãäà áûëî â àæóðå. Îáâèíÿÿ ÷åëîâåêà, ÷àñòî ïðèõîäèëîñü çàäåéñòâîâàòü ëîãèêó è ýìîöèè, à íå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà (Æåãëîâ áû ïîíÿë). Íî äåëî òîãî ñòîèëî.
Âîò è Ñóâîðîâ ìîòèâèðîâàí òàêæå: äîêàçàòü ãëàâíîå, âîçìîæíî äîïóñêàÿ «ïðèòÿãèâàÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ». Ïî åãî òåêñòàì âèäíî, ÷òî îí ìîæåò ãîðÿ÷èòüñÿ â ïîëåìèêå, íî ýòî íå ïîðîê.
Êñòàòè, ëþáèòåëè ïîäñ÷èòûâàòü òîííîìèëëèìåòðû âîþþò ñ â÷åðàøíèì äíåì. Íîâàÿ êíèãà Ñóâîðîâà («Ñâÿòîå äåëî»)-ýòî óæå äðóãîé óðîâåíü. Òàì ðå÷ü èäåò íå î êîìïîíîâêàõ òàíêà.
Ýòî ê òîìó, óâàæàåìûé, âû âñå æå óïóñòèëè ìîþ îñíîâíóþ ìûñëü: Ñóâîðîâ áüåòñÿ ñ ãèäðîé, à åãî ïðîòèâíèêè- çà ñâîå òùåñëàâèå.
ß ýòîãî è íà÷èíàëñÿ ìîé ïîñò: ðàçíûé ó âàñ ñ íèì óðîâåíü ìîòèâàöèè.
È, èçâèíèòå, íà ýòîì âñå.
Âàø îòâåò ïðî÷åñòü- ïðî÷òó, îòâå÷àòü íå áóäó.
#263

panzerknacker
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 09:07:01
Ãåíðèõ ïèñàë(à):
Ïî÷èòàéòå åãî êíèãè íå ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ óñâîåíèÿ òåõí.èíôîðìàöèè, à òî÷êè çðåíèÿ ñëîãà è ñòèëÿ. Åãî óáåæäåííîñòü íå âûçûâàåò ñîìíåíèé.

Íó òàê ýòî åãî åäèíñòâåííûé íåîñïîðèìûé àãðóìåíò. Ñàì âåäü ïðèçíàëñÿ, ÷òî "Ãëàâíîå äëÿ èñòîðèêà – ôàêòû. Äëÿ àãèòàòîðà – èíòîíàöèÿ". Âîò îí íà ýòîé èíòîíàöèè è âûåçæàåò. À êàê êîïíåøü ÷óòü - òàê ñïëîøíûå ïîäëîãè.

«Âðàòü íà êàæäîì øàãó»?
ßâíî òóò ïåðåãíóëè.


Òî÷íî. Íå íà êàæäîì øàãó, à íà êàæäîé ñòðàíèöå.

ß áû íàçâàë ýòî «äîïóñêàåò íåòî÷íîñòè â êàêèõ-òî äåòàëÿõ» èëè «ïîäãîíÿåò ôàêòû ïîä òåîðèþ».
 ïðàâå åñòü ïîíÿòèå «îòíîñèìîñòü äîêàçàòåëüñòâ». Åñëè êàêîé-òî ôàêò íå êàñàåòñÿ ñóòè äåëà, ñóä åãî íå ðàññìàòðèâàåò.  äàííîì ñëó÷àå, åñëè êàêàÿ-òî òåõíè÷åñêàÿ èíôîðìàöèÿ Ñóâîðîâà íå ïîäòâåðæäàåò åãî ãëàâíóþ òåîðèþ, òî åå ïðîñòî íå íóæíî ïðèíèìàòü ê ñâåäåíèþ, îíà ëèøíÿÿ. Ò.å. Ñóâîðîâó ïðîñòî íå íóæíî áûëî åå ïðèâîäèòü. Îáúåêòèâíûé ñóäüÿ åìó áû ñêàçàë: «Âîò ýòîò äàííûé ôàêò íè÷åãî íå äîêàçûâàåò, ÿ åãî èñêëþ÷àþ èç ìàòåðèàëîâ». Òîëüêî–òî è âñåãî. Ëèøíèé äîêóìåíò, íå áîëåå òîãî. À ïðîòèâíèêè Ñóâîðîâà óæå íà÷èíàþò õîðîâîå ïåòü: «Âðåò, ôàëüñèôèöèðóåò, èñêàæàåò».

Íè÷åãî îí íå âðåò. Ïðîñòî ïðèâîäèò íå íóæíûå («íå îòíîñèìûå ê äåëó», èëè íå ïðîâåðåííûå, ïîýòîìó ëèøíèå) äîêàçàòåëüñòâà, è òåì ñàìûì ïîäñòàâëÿåò ñåáÿ (ñèðå÷ü ñâîþ ãëàâíóþ èäåþ) ïîä íåçàñëóæåííûé óäàð.

Êàêàÿ-òî ñòðàííàÿ çàêîíîìåðíîñòü: êàê äîêàçàòåëüíîñòü "íå îòíîñèòñÿ ê äåëó" - òàê ñîâðàë. À çà÷åì æå âðàòü â äîêàçàòåëüñòâàõ, êîòîðûå íå èìåþò íèêàêîãî çíà÷åíèÿ? Íå ëîãè÷íî. Òî åñòü ëèáî Ñóâîðîâ íåïîñëåäîâàòåëåí è òîãäà âïîðó ãîâîðèòü âîîáùå î åãî àäåêâàòíîì ïîâåäåíèè, ëèáî îí òàêè àäåêâàòåí è òîãäà âñå ýòè "íå îòíîñÿùèåñÿ ê äåëó" äåòàëè - ñóòü âàæíàÿ ñîñòàâëÿþùàÿ åãî óìîçàêëþ÷åíèé.

Âñÿ åãî ãëàâíàÿ èäåÿ çèæäåòñÿ êàê ðàç íà áîëüøîì êîëè÷åñòâå èìåííî ìåëêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ. Êðîìå íèõ â åãî òðèëîãèè âîîáùå íè÷åãî áîëüøå íåò. Òîëüêî íåêàÿ "ãëàâíàÿ èäåÿ" è ñîíì ìåëêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ. Èìåííî èì îí ïîñâÿùàåò ïïðàêòè÷åñêè âñå ñòðàíèöû ñâîèõ êíèã. À ðàç òàê, òî îòìåòàòü âñå èõ êàê "íå îòíîñÿùèåñÿ ê äåëó" - ýòî ïî ñóòè ïðîñòî íóæíî âñþ êíèæêó âûáðàñûâàòü â ïîìîéêó.

«Åãî êíèãè íå ñîäåðæàòü íè ñëîâà ïðàâäû»?
Í-äà… Äàæå íå çíàþ ÷òî îòâåòèòü íà ýòî…


Ïî êðàéíåé ìåðå ÷åñòíî.

Ðàáîòà â ïðàâîîõðàíèòåëüíûõ îðãàíàõ, äåéñòâèòåëüíî, íå ÿâëÿåòñÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâîì ïðàâîòû. Äîâîä áûë ïðèâåäåí ïî äðóãîìó âîïðîñó: ÿ îòïðàâèë çà ðåøåòêó îêîëî 150 ÷åëîâåê, è î÷åíü ÷àñòî, ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ, íå âñå è íå âñåãäà áûëî â àæóðå. Îáâèíÿÿ ÷åëîâåêà, ÷àñòî ïðèõîäèëîñü çàäåéñòâîâàòü ëîãèêó è ýìîöèè, à íå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà (Æåãëîâ áû ïîíÿë). Íî äåëî òîãî ñòîèëî.

Ìíå âàñ æàëü. Âû èìååòå íàãëîñòü íå òîëüêî îñóæäàòü ëþäåé íà çàêëþ÷åíèå, íå èìåÿ âåñêèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ è ïîäìåíÿòü íåäîñòàþùèå äîêàçàòåëüñòâà ñâîèìè äîìûñëàìè, íî è åùå õâàñòàòü ýòèì. Ó íàñ ñ âàìè äåéñòâèòåëüíî ðàçíûé óðîâåíü ìîòèâàöèè. ß, âïðî÷åì, êàê è àâòîðû "Ìåñòà âñòðå÷è" Âàéíåðû, è ñàì Âûñîöêèé, ñ÷èòàþ Æåãëîâà îòðèöàòåëüíûì ïåðñîíàæåì, à âû èì ãîðäèòåñü. Ôëàã âàì â ðóêè.

Âîò è Ñóâîðîâ ìîòèâèðîâàí òàêæå: äîêàçàòü ãëàâíîå, âîçìîæíî äîïóñêàÿ «ïðèòÿãèâàÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ».

Òî÷íî-òî÷íî! Ãëàâíîå ñîñòðÿïàòü äåëüöå, à "âèíîâåí-íåâèíîâåí" - ýòî äåëî äåñÿòîå.
#265

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 09:24:29
Ãåíðèõ ïèñàë(à):
Äîâîä áûë ïðèâåäåí ïî äðóãîìó âîïðîñó: ÿ îòïðàâèë çà ðåøåòêó îêîëî 150 ÷åëîâåê, è î÷åíü ÷àñòî, ñ òî÷êè çðåíèÿ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ, íå âñå è íå âñåãäà áûëî â àæóðå.

ß ïðåäëàãàþ âîîáùå îò äîêàçàòåëüñâ îòêàçàòüñÿ! Çà÷åì ìó÷àòüñÿ, âðåìÿ òåðÿòü? Äîêàçàòåëüñòâà êàêèå-òî äóðàöêèå... Ïðîñòî ãëÿäèì íà ðîæó çàäåðæàííîãî, è åñëè îíà íå íðàâèòñÿ - òî ñðàçó â òþðüìó.

Ïî åãî òåêñòàì âèäíî, ÷òî îí ìîæåò ãîðÿ÷èòüñÿ â ïîëåìèêå, íî ýòî íå ïîðîê.

Êîäà "ãîðÿ÷åíèå" â ïîëåìèêå ïðèâîäèò ê âðàíüþ íà êàæäîé ñòðàíèöå, òî ýòî äåéñòâèòåëüíî íå ïîðîê. Ýòî ïàòîëîãèÿ.
#267
boba
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 09:40:59
ãîñïîòè áîæå ìîå äà ãäå æå ìû æèâåì ???? ìû ñòðàíà êîòîðîàÿ íåèìîâåðíûì ÷èñëîì æåðòâ âûâåçëà âî âñåé ýòîé ìÿñîðóáêå,à êàêèåòî îáùå÷åëîâåêè òèïà ðèçóíà, åâãåíà ,ïàâëîâà äåëàþò èç íàñ òå ìàññû êîòîðûå â êîíöå êîíöîâ äàäóò äîáðî íà ïðîâåäåíèå ïàðàäà âåòåðàíîâ ýñòîíñêîãî ss íà êðàñíîé ïëîùàäè ÎÏÎÌÍÈÒÅÑÜ !!!!!
#268
boba
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 09:50:35
àâòîð ïðîñòî íå ïîëèíèëñÿ ïåðåâåðíóë êó÷ó äîêóìåíòîâ è ïîéìàë ðèçóíà íà îáûâàòåëüñêîé ëæè ðåñïåêò åìó, à òå êòî ïîääåðæèâàþò ðèçóíà ïîëþáîìó ýñòîíû íåäîáèòûå (åòî ìîå ëè÷íîå ìíåíèå)ïîòîìó êàê îáñèðàòü ñâîþ ,êàêàÿ áû îíà íå áûëà õîðîøàÿ ,èñòîðèþ íàäî èìåòü â çàïàñå äèáèëèçì îò ðèçóíîâñêèõ èñòî÷íèêîâ.!!!!!
#269
boba
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 12 2008 10:09:34
äëÿ òåõ êòî âïåðâûå ïð÷èòàë ýòó ñàòüþ è êíèãó (íå âàæíî êàêóþ) Ðåçóíà.Íå ïîëåíèòåñü ïðîñòî åñëè åñòü âîçìîæíîñòü èíòåðíåòà (ò.å ñêîðîñòü, àíëèì, è ò.ä) ïðîâåðüòå åãî(ðèçóíà) áåçîãîâîðî÷íûå ôàêòû è âû óâèäåòå ÷òî âñå ËÎÆÜ ,à åñëè åå íåò òî, îíà òùàòåëüíî ìàñêèðîâàíà,äà âààáùå îùóùåíèå ÷òî êíèãó ïèñàë íå ñîâåòñêèé îôèöåð ,à îôèöåð ÍÀÒÎ ïðè÷åì ïðèøèáëåíûé ñî âñåõ ñòîðîí!!!!
#270
Àÿé
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 14 2008 14:45:21
Ïðåäñòàâëÿþ ñåáå âàøè ðîæè, êîãäà íàéäåòñÿ íàêîíåö ÷åñòíûé ÷åëîâåê è âûòàùèò èç àðõèâà "ïðåçèäåíòà" ïîäëèííûé ïëàí äåäóøêè Ñòàëèíà íà 41 ãîä. À âåäü ýòî îáÿçàòåëüíî áóäåò, êàê óæå ñëó÷èëîñü ñ ïàêòîì 39 ãîäà, ñóùåñòâîâàíèå êîòîðîãî òààààê äîëãî îòðèöàëîñü. Ïðàâäà äûðî÷êó íàéäåò. Íåêîòîðûì ïðèäåòñÿ ñìåíèòü àâàòàðû íà èëè .

Pz:
Çà îôôòîïèê â òåìå, ôëóä, íàåçäû íà àäìèíèñòðàöèþ è Ñâÿòåéøåãî Ïàòðèàðõà Àëåêñèÿ II þçåð Àÿé ïîëó÷àåò áàí. Âñå ñîîáùåíèÿ ýòîãî ãîñïîäèíà óäàëåíû ïî âûøåóêàçàííûì ïðè÷èíàì.
#279
Model1942
\"çàáûâ÷èâûé\" Ðåçóí
Dec 17 2008 06:13:14
...îñîáåííî ñìåøíî, ÷òî îí ñåðü¸çíî ñ÷èòàë êîììóíèñòîâ âðàãàìè. È ïðî êîíöëàãåðÿ ðàññêàçûâàë. À ÷òî Ëåíèí ââ¸ë ñïåðâà êîììóíèçì "ñ õîäó", êàê ãîâîðèòñÿ, íî ðàáî÷èå è êðåñòüÿíå, ñëóæàùèå è ñîëäàòû íå ñìîãëè ýôôåêòèâíî ÑÀÌÈ óïðàâëÿòü ñâîèìè ïðîèçâîäñòâàìè è êîëëåêòèâàìè - ÝÒÎ ÎÍ "ÇÀÁÛË". Òåïåðü æå, êîãäà åãî ëþáèìûé "êàïèòàëèçüì" ãðîáèò ×åëîâå÷åñòâî áåç âñÿêèõ êîììóíèñòîâ - îí çàòêíóëñÿ! Òîëüêî ïðî òàíêè ïèøåò...

#285
udm
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 17 2008 13:58:48
Äîáðûé äåíü!
Ñêàæó ñðàçó – ÿ íå ðåçóíèñò. Íî, âíèìàòåëüíî ÷èòàÿ êðèòèêó Ñóâîðîâà, îáðàòèë âíèìàíèå, ÷òî âñå êàê îäèí áðîñèëèñü ãíîáèòü åãî çà òàíêè-ñàìîëåòû è ïëîõîå çíàíèå ñòðàòåãèè è òàêòèêè. À âñå îñòàëüíîå êàê-òî ïðîïóùåíî ìèìî. Èëè, âîçìîæíî ÿ ïëîõî èñêàë.
Ëè÷íî ìåíÿ èíòåðåñóåò ïðàâäîïîäîáíîñòü ôàêòîâ èçëîæåííûõ Ñóâîðîâûì:
1. Òåìà ïðî òî, ÷òî ÷óòü ëè íå ñ ïåðâûõ äíåé âîåâàëè çýêè â òþðåìíûõ ðîáàõ. Äàæå ôîòî âðîäå áûëè.
2. Ïåñíÿ «Âñòàâàé, ñòðàíà îãðîìíàÿ» íàïèñàíà åùå äî âîéíû. Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, èíòåðåñóþò ìîòèâû, ïîáóäèâøèå ê íàïèñàíèþ òàêîé ïåñíè.
3. Âîñïîìèíàíèÿ áûâøåãî ñîòðóäíèêà âîåíêîìàòà ÿêîáû î òîì, ÷òî ïðîïàãàíäèñòñêèå ïëàêàòû íà÷àëà âîéíû ïîñòóïèëè â âîåíêîìàòû çàäîëãî äî íà÷àëà ñàìîé âîéíû.
Çàðàíåå ñïàñèáî!
#286

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 17 2008 14:13:44
udm ïèñàë(à):
Ñêàæó ñðàçó – ÿ íå ðåçóíèñò. Íî, âíèìàòåëüíî ÷èòàÿ êðèòèêó Ñóâîðîâà, îáðàòèë âíèìàíèå, ÷òî âñå êàê îäèí áðîñèëèñü ãíîáèòü åãî çà òàíêè-ñàìîëåòû è ïëîõîå çíàíèå ñòðàòåãèè è òàêòèêè. À âñå îñòàëüíîå êàê-òî ïðîïóùåíî ìèìî. Èëè, âîçìîæíî ÿ ïëîõî èñêàë.

Ïëîõî èñêàëè. È â ýëåêòðîííîì è â "áóìàæíîì" âàðèàíòàõ íàïèñàíî ìíîãî.


Ëè÷íî ìåíÿ èíòåðåñóåò ïðàâäîïîäîáíîñòü ôàêòîâ èçëîæåííûõ Ñóâîðîâûì:
1. Òåìà ïðî òî, ÷òî ÷óòü ëè íå ñ ïåðâûõ äíåé âîåâàëè çýêè â òþðåìíûõ ðîáàõ. Äàæå ôîòî âðîäå áûëè.


Ïðîñòî ãàëèìîå âðàíüå.

2. Ïåñíÿ «Âñòàâàé, ñòðàíà îãðîìíàÿ» íàïèñàíà åùå äî âîéíû. Ñîîòâåòñòâåííî, èíòåðåñóþò ìîòèâû, ïîáóäèâøèå ê íàïèñàíèþ òàêîé ïåñíè.

Äàæå åñëè áû ýòî òàê è áûëî. È ÷òî ýòî äîêàçûâàåò? Äà íè÷åãî ýòî íå äîêàçûâàåò. Áûëà íóæíà ïàòðèîòè÷íàÿ ïåñíÿ, îíà ïîÿâèëàñü.  ïåñíå íåò è íàìåêà íà àãðåññèâíîñòü ÑÑÑÐ, íàîáîðîò, ðå÷ü èäåò îá îáîðîíå ñâîåé ñòðàíû. òî, ÷òî âîéíà îáÿçàòåëüíî áóäåò çíàëè âñå, äà ýòî îñîáåííî è íå îòðèöàëîñü. Òàê ÷òî âñ¸ íà ìåñòå.
Âåëèêàÿ Îòå÷åñòâåííàÿ äàâíî îòãðåìåëà, à ïåñíÿ ïî-ïðåæíåìó æèâåò. Ýòî òîæå ÷òî-òî äîêàçûâàåò? Îïÿòü ñ Ãåðìàíèåé âîåâàòü ñîáèðàåìñÿ?
Ê òîìó æå ïåñíÿ ïîÿâèëàñü çíà÷èòåëüíî ðàíüøå èþíÿ 41-ãî! Çíà-à÷èòåëüíî ðàíüøå, âû äàæå óäèâèòåñü íàñêîëüêî ðàíüøå!

3. Âîñïîìèíàíèÿ áûâøåãî ñîòðóäíèêà âîåíêîìàòà ÿêîáû î òîì, ÷òî ïðîïàãàíäèñòñêèå ïëàêàòû íà÷àëà âîéíû ïîñòóïèëè â âîåíêîìàòû çàäîëãî äî íà÷àëà ñàìîé âîéíû.

Êàñàåìî ýòèõ "âîñïîìèíàíèé" - ïðîñòî áðåõíÿ. ß òîæå ìîãó íàïèñàòü, ÷òî ìíå, ìîë, íåêèé äåäóøêà ðàññêàçûâàë î òîì, ÷òî ìû ñîáèðàëèñü íàïàñòü íà êàêîé-íèáóäü Êàìåðóí, íî òàê êàê âñå òîãäà áîÿëèñü, òî, ìîë, ó äåäóøêè äîêóìåíòèêîâ íå ñîõðàíèëîñü. Âçÿë è ñîâðàë.

Êàñàåìî ìîáïëàíà - äà, áûë ìîáïëàí. Îí åñòü âñåãäà â êàæäîé ñòðàíå ìèðà. Åñòü è ñåãîäíÿ â ÐÔ.
#287
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 18 2008 13:15:35
udm"ó ìîãó ñêàçàòü, ÷òî:
ïî÷èòàéòå êíèãó-îïðîâåðæåíèå èñòîðèêà Ïîìîãàéáî. Çäîðîâåííûé òîì, êàê ðîìàí Äþìà. Òàì åñòü âñå - è òåõíèêà, è ñòðàòåãèÿ ñ òàêòèêîé, è ïîäòàñîâêè Ðåçóíà â èçëîæåíèè èñòîðè÷åñêèõ ñîáûòèé, âîñïîìèíàíèé. Íàïðèìåð, Ðåçóí ïèøåò, ÷òî â ïðèñóòñòâèè Êàðáûøåâà èñïûòûâàëè Ò-34 íà ïðåîäîëåíèå óêðåïëåíèé. Âûâîä - íåñîìíåííî, ãîòîâèëèñü íàïàñòü íà Ãåðìàíèþ! À Ïîìîãàéáî, öèòèðóÿ î÷åâèäöåâ, ïèøåò, ÷òî ýòî ÓÊÐÅÏËÅÍÈß èñïûòûâàëè, ÷òîáû òàíêè íå ìîãëè èõ ïðåîäîëåòü. Ðàçíèöà, ïî-ìîåìó, î÷åâèäíà!
Íàñ÷åò ï.1 ñêàçàòü íè÷åãî íå ìîãó, ò.ê. â èñòîðèè ïîëíûé ïðîôàí, à íàñ÷åò ïåñíè â êàêîé-òî ïåðåäà÷å ãîâîðèëè, ÷òî îíà áûëà íàïèñàíà â Ïåðâóþ Ìèðîâóþ âîéíó, à Ëåáåäåâ-Êóìà÷ ïðîñòî èçìåíèë íåêîòîðûå ñëîâà è âûäàë çà ñâîþ. Ìîæåò, è âðàíüå.
#288
bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 21 2008 14:41:23
Ðåçóí êîíå÷íî íàêîëáàñèë íå ñëàáî, è íàâûäóìûâàë è íàâðàë ñ âàãîí. À êòî â ýòîì âèíîâàò òî? ×åì ìåíüøå äîñòóïíûõ äîêóìåíòîâ, òåì ïðîùå âðàòü. Ïî÷åìó äî ñèõ ïîð îñòàåòñÿ ñåêðåòíûì îãðîìíîå êîëè÷åñòâî ìàòåðèàëîâ ïî òîé âîéíå? Êîìàíäà Âîëêîãîíîâà ãîâîðÿò óíè÷òîæèëà íåñêîëüêî òîíí äîêóìåíòîâ, ïîêà äîêàçûâàëà, ÷òî íàøè ïîòåðè áûëè íå áîëüøå íåìåöêèõ. Äîêàçàëè, íàãðàäû ïîëó÷èëè. Ëó÷øå áû èõ îòïðàâèëè â ëåñ ñ ëîïàòàìè.
Òóò âíèçó ñòðàíèöû ìíîãî ëþáîïûòíîãî â ðàçäåëå "Ïðîáëåìû äîñòóïà ê äîêóìåíòàì â ÖÀÌÎ": http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A6%D0%90%D0%9C%D0%9E
Äîñòóïíà âñÿêàÿ ìàêóëàòóðà òèïà áîåâûõ äîíåñåíèé èëè ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ "êàê ìû áóäåì õîðîíèòü ïîãèáøèõ", íî òîëüêî íå ïî ïåðèîäó ïåðåä âîéíîé è ïî åå íà÷àëüíîìó ïåðèîäó.
Âîò åùå îòëè÷íûé îáðàçåö ãëàñíîñòè: http://svr.gov.ru/material/material.htm
Ýòî íàçûâàåòñÿ ðàññåêðåòèëè. Ïðî Ïðèáàëòèêó êîíå÷íî "áåçóìíî" èíòåðåñíî, ñïàñèáî õîòü íå ïðî Ìîíãîëèþ...
Äîñòîÿíèåì ãëàñíîñòè ñòàëè âîò òàêèå âåùè: http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Russia/USSR/1936-1941/soobr.htm. Ïðàâäà áûëè ìíåíèÿ, ÷òî ýòî Ñòàëèí çàáðàêîâàë.
Òîãäà ãäå ïîäëèííûé ïëàí ìîáèëèçàöèè, îáîðîíû èëè íàñòóïëåíèÿ, ñ ïîäïèñÿìè è ïå÷àòÿìè? ×òî òàì çà âîåííûå òàéíû? Âñå ðåàëüíî âàæíûå òàéíû äàâíî ïðîäàëè èëè ïîäàðèëè, à ýòó âñå áåðåãóò? Ìîæåò ïðîñòî ïîòîìó, ÷òî çà íåå äåíåã íèêòî íå äàñò?
ß äóìàþ, åñëè áû òàì áûë ïëàí íàïàäåíèÿ íà Ãåðìàíèþ, íàñ áû çà ýòî íèêòî íå îñóäèë íè òîãäà íè ñåé÷àñ. Âîò è ïðèìåðû: http://svr.gov.ru/material/pribaltica-otzyvy.htm.
Èíîãäà ãîâîðÿò, ÷òî àìåðèêàíöû òîæå ìíîãîå äî ñèõ ïîð íå ðàññåêðåòèëè.
Ìîæåò ÿ íå ïðàâ, íî ïðîñòàÿ ëîãèêà ïîäñêàçûâàåò, ÷òî òàì íå÷òî ÑÎÂÑÅÌ íåïðèëè÷íîå, òàê æå êàê ó àìåðèêàíöåâ.
Âèäèìî áóäóò ñêðûâàòü âñå ýòî äî òåõ ïîð ïîêà íå òîëüêî ïîñëåäíèå âåòåðàíû óìðóò, íî è íå âûðàñòóò ïîêîëåíèÿ, êîòîðûì ýòà âîéíà áóäåò òàê æå èíòåðåñíà, êàê áîëüøèíñòâó èç íàñ 1812 ãîä.
#289
Òîõà
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 22 2008 07:59:46
Ïåñíÿ "Âñòàâàé, ñòðàíà îãðîìíàÿ" íàðèñàíà åùå â 1914. Îòëè÷èå îò ïðèâû÷íîãî âàðèàíòà â ñëîâàõ "ñ ãåðìàíñêîé ñèëîé òåìíîþ" âìåñòî "ñ ôàøèñòñêîé ñèëîé òåìíîþ".
Òåìà ïðî òî, ÷òî ÷óòü ëè íå ñ ïåðâûõ äíåé âîåâàëè çýêè â òþðåìíûõ ðîáàõ. Äàæå ôîòî âðîäå áûëè.
Ëåãåíäà ïðî "÷åðíóþ äèâèçèþ" ÍÊÂÄ ãóëÿåò óæå ëåò äâàäöàòü.
#291
Ïàâåë
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 23 2008 11:59:15
Òàê âñå-òàêè "÷åðíàÿ äèâèçèÿ" ÍÊÂÄ èëè ÇÊ? Åñëè áû áûëè ôîòîãðàôèè, òî, ÿ äóìàþ, ïî îáìóíäèðîâàíèþ óæå âñå áûëî áû ïîíÿòíî. Ýòî, âèäèìî, ëåãåíäà èç òîãî æå ðàçðÿäà, ÷òî è ïðåñëîâóòàÿ "ÃÀÈøíàÿ êðàãà". ß ëè÷íî ñëûøàë ýòó èñòîðèþ (ïðî êðàãó) îò 3-4 ÷åëîâåê. "Ñëó÷èëîñü ýòî íå ñ íàìè, à ñ îäíèìè çíàêîìûìè íàøèõ çíàêîìûõ..."
#293

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 23 2008 12:35:13
Ïàâåë ïèñàë(à):
Òàê âñå-òàêè "÷åðíàÿ äèâèçèÿ" ÍÊÂÄ èëè ÇÊ? Åñëè áû áûëè ôîòîãðàôèè, òî, ÿ äóìàþ, ïî îáìóíäèðîâàíèþ óæå âñå áûëî áû ïîíÿòíî.

Íè÷åãî âû èç ôîòîãðàôèé íå óâèäèòå. Âîéñêà ÍÊÂÄ íà "ïåðåäêå" íîñèëè îáìóíäèðîâàíèå îáû÷íûõ ñòðåëêîâûõ ÷àñòåé èëè ïîãðàíöîâ (åñëè ýòî ïîãðàíâîéñêà ÍÊÂÄ).
#294
Supertramp
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 24 2008 15:21:44
Íàñ÷åò ïëàêàòîâ. Ïî âñåé âèäèìîñòè ïå÷àòàëèñü îíè íå òîëüêî íà ïðèãðàíè÷íûõ òåððèòîðèÿõ, à è â òåõ ãîðîäàõ ãäå íåïîñðåäñòâåííî íàçåìíûå áîåâûå äåéñòâèÿ íå âåëèñü, íàïðèìåð Ìîñêâà è Êóéáûøåâ (Ñàìàðà). Íåïëîõî áû áûëî ïîñìîòðåòü êîãäà îíè çàêàçàíû. Êàê ïîëó÷èòü äîñòóï ê òàêîé èíôîðìàöèè? ß äóìàþ, ÷òî ó òåõ êòî èìååò äîñòóï ê âîåííûì àðõèâàì òàêàÿ âîçìîæíîñòü åñòü. Èçâèíèòå çà ìåëî÷íîñòü âîïðîñà, íî ìíå êàæåòñÿ, ÷òî íàäî ñòàâèòü ïåðåä ñîáîé ðåàëüíûå çàäà÷è. Åñëè óäàñòüñÿ îïðåäåëèòüñÿ ñ äàòàìè çàêàçîâ íà ïëàêàòû òèïà "Ðîäèíà-Ìàòü çîâåò!", òî ìàëåíüêîå çâåíî áóäåò ÿñíî âèäíî. Ìåíÿ òàê ó÷èëè - "Àíàëèç è ñèíòåç". Ðàçáèëè çàäà÷ó "Ñîáèðàëñÿ ëè Ñòàëèí íàïàäàòü íà Ãåðìàíèþ" íà ìíîæåñòâî ìàëûõ, à ïëàêàòû - îäíà èç íèõ. Íàøëè îòâåò, èëè ïîïûòêó ñêðûòü èíôîðìàöèþ - äåëàéòå âûâîä, èëè ïåðåõîäèòå ê ñëåäóþùåé ìàëåíüêîé çàäà÷å, ñíîâà èùèòå îòâåò, à ïîòîì êîãäà ðåøåííûõ èëè íåðåøåííûõ çàäà÷ áóäåò îïðåäåëåííîå êîëè÷åñòâî ïîñòàðàéòåñü ïåðåéòè ê ñèíòåçó, ÷òî è îáåñïå÷èò "ïåðåõîä êîëè÷åñòâà â êà÷åñòâî" (Ìàðêñ, êàæåòñÿ).
Äëÿ ìåíÿ Ñóâîðîâ - íå ñïåöèàëèñò, íî ÷åëîâåê èìåþùèé ñâîé âçãëÿä íà èñòîðèþ, ïîäåëèâøèéñÿ ýòèì âçãëÿäîì ñ äðóãèìè, íå âîçðàæàþùèé ïðîòèâ îáñóæäåíèé, ñàì, ïðè ïîÿâëåíèè áîëåå ðåàëüíûõ îáúÿñíåíèé òîìó, ÷òî ïðîèçîøëî â èþíå 1941, êðèòèêóþùèé ñåáÿ (â îòëè÷èå îò òåõ êòî åãî "îïðîâåðãàåò" - îíè ... "Íó ïðîñòî âñåãäà ïðàâû". Âñïîìíèòå åãî îòçûâ íà íå ñëàáóþ êíèãó Ìàðêà Ñîëîíèíà, êîòîðûé áëèçîê ìíå êàê èíæåíåð - "Àíàëèç è ñèíòåç".
Âñïîìíèòå êàê ó Ñîëîíèíà âñÿ ÁÎËÜØÀß îáñòàíîâêà ðàçáèòà íà ìíîæåñòâî ìàëåíüêèõ ýïèçîäîâ, êàæäûé èç íèõ ëåã÷å îáñóæäàòü è ïðîâåðÿòü. Ïîýòîìó äàâàéòå áåç êðèêîâ è ïî-ìàëåíüêó, íå çàáûâàÿ. ÷òî íàøà öåëü - çíàòü ÏÐÀÂÄÓ. Èëè ÿ íå ïðàâ?
#297

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Dec 24 2008 17:41:38
Äà ëàáóäà âñå ýòè "àíàëèçû" è "ñèíòåçû". Ïëàêàòû... ïåñíè... Ó âàñ ïîðî÷åí ñàì ïîäõîä ê âîïðîñó. Ðåçóí è âïðàâäó íà âîò òàêîé ìåëî÷è, íà áàðàíüèõ òóëóïàõ äà íà âñÿêîé âåòîøè äëÿ ïðîòèðêè ñòâîëîâ äåëàåò ñâîå "ãëàâíîå" çàÿâëåíèå. Ðàçáèðàòü êàæäûé áàðàíèé òóëóï - ãëóïî, è íåðàöèîíàëüíî. Çà÷åì íàäî èñêàòü ïðàâäó òàì, ãäå ÄÎÊÀÇÀÍÎ, ÷òî åå íåò? ×òî âàì ýòè ïëàêàòû äàëèñü? ×òî îíè äîêàçûâàþò? ×òî íàïàñòü ñîáèðàëèñü? ×òî, ïðÿì òàê íà ïëàêàòàõ è ïèñàëè? Èëè "èõ âñå óíè÷òîæèëè", êîãäà ñòàëî ÿñíî, ÷òî ñîâåòñêèé áëèöêðèã íà çàïàä ñîðâàëñÿ? Íó, õîðîøî, ó íàñ ñîðâàëñÿ, à ó íåìöåâ - íåò. Ãäå ó íåìöåâ â èþíå 41-ãî õîòü îäèí ïëàêàò, êîòîðûé ïðÿìî ïðèçûâàåò íàïàñòü íà ÑÑÑÐ? Íåòó?
À ñåãîäíÿ ó íàñ â Ðîññèè â ìîáðåçåðâå åñòü ïàòðèîòè÷íûå ïëàêàòû íà ñëó÷àé âîéíû? Åñòü. Ìû ÷òî, íà êîãî-òî íàïàñòü ãîòîâèìñÿ, äà?
Åùå ðàç ãîâîðþ: íå íàäî â ñëîâàõ ëãóíà èñêàòü ïðàâäó. Åå òàì ïðîñòî íåò.
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bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 05 2009 15:25:11
To V_P: Ïî ïîâîäó ËÀÁÓÄÛ è âîò ýòîãî:
Êàñàåìî ìîáïëàíà - äà, áûë ìîáïëàí. Îí åñòü âñåãäà â êàæäîé ñòðàíå ìèðà. Åñòü è ñåãîäíÿ â ÐÔ.[/quote]

Íó òàê ãäå îí, ìîáïëàí íà 41-ûé ãîä? Íåò? À ïî÷åìó?
Âîò êîãäà áóäåò äîñòóïåí ýòîò ñàìûé ìîáïëàí(ñ êàðòàìè), òîãäà ìîæíî áóäåò ñîïîñòàâèòü êîíêðåòíîå ïîëîæåíèå è ñîñòîÿíèå âîéñê íà 22 èþíÿ 41 ãîäà è ñêàçàòü: äà,âûïîëíÿëñÿ èìåííî ýòîò ïëàí è ïîýòîìó äàëüøå ïðîèçîøëî ýòî è âîò ýòî è ò.ä. Ëèáî ïëàí òàê è îñòàëñÿ áóìàæêîé.
À ïîêà, ìîæíî âñå íàçûâàòü - ËÀÁÓÄÎÉ, è "äîêàçàòåëüñòâà" Ðåçóíà è "îïðîâåðæåíèÿ" ýòèõ äîêàçàòåëüñòâ. Ìîæíî ñêîëüêî óãîäíî èñêàòü ó Ðåçóíà òåõíè÷åñêèå ãëóïîñòè, ïðîòèâîðå÷èÿ è ïîäòàñîâêè, íî â åãî âåðñèè áîëüøå ëîãèêè. Ê ëîãèêå íåêîòîðûõ ñîáûòèé ñïîðû î òîëùèíå áðîíè, óãëàõ åå îáñòðåëà, ñîëÿðêå è áåíçèíå íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìåþò. Ýòî ìîæåò ïîìî÷ü ïîíÿòü ïî÷åìó Âàñÿ ñâîèì ÷óäåñíûì òàíêîì íå ñìîã çàñòðåëèòü âðîäå áû ôèãîâåíüêèé òàíê Ãàíñà, à òîò íàîáîðîò ñìîã.
Íåãîäíîñòü àðãóìåíòîâ Ðåçóíà ñâèäåòåëüñòâóåò òîëüêî î òîì, ÷òî îí ïðèìåíèë íåãîäíûå àðãóìåíòû è ìåòîäû äîêàçàòåëüñòâà è òî÷íî òàê æå íå ñâèäåòåëüñòâóåò îá îòñóòñòâèè íàìåðåíèé Ñòàëèíà íàïàñòü íà Ãåðìàíèþ â 41 ãîäó êàê è òî, ÷òî ñîâåòñêèå òàíêè ÿêîáû áûëè õóæå íåìåöêèõ, èëè
íàëè÷èå èëè îòñóòñòâèå ðàçíûõ ïëàêàòîâ è ïåñåí. Ïðàâäà äåéñòâèòåëüíî íå â ýòîì, ïðàâäà â
äîêóìåíòàõ. À ãäå òå äîêóìåíòû? Ïî÷åìó èõ ïðÿ÷óò? È êòî? Îíè âåäü íå â ÖÀÌÎ, à â àðõèâå "ïðåçèäåíòà".
Åäèíñòâåííàÿ àëüòåðíàòèâà ëîãèêå Ðåçóíà: ìû çíàëè ÷òî ñêîðî âîéíà, ÷òî îíà íåèçáåæíà, ìû ê íåé óñèëåííî ãîòîâèëèñü, íî îêàçàëèñü íåãîòîâû, âåäü îíà íà÷àëàñü ñîâåðøåííî íåîæèäàííî, êàê îáû÷íî äåëàåò çèìà â Ìîñêâå. Íåïîíÿòíî òîëüêî êàê óñïåëè íàêëåïàòü 25000 òàíêîâ è ñòîëüêî æå ñàìîëåòîâ, à îêîïîâ íàðûòü ïîçàáûëè. Íî ýòî ïðèäèðêè.
Åùå áûâàþò äîïîëíåíèÿ ê ýòîé âåðñèè, ÷òî íàøà àðìèÿ áûëà áàðàõëî, êàê è âñå íàøå îðóæèå. Òóò òîæå íå ñîâñåì íåïîíÿòíî, ÷åì ïîòîì ïîáåäèëè, íî ýòî ÿ îïÿòü ïðèäèðàþñü. Èçâèíèòå.
È ýòî ñîáñòâåííî âñå, è íè÷åãî íå íàäî äîêàçûâàòü è àíàëèçèðîâàòü.
Íå õî÷ó íèêîãî îáèäåòü, íî ýòè îáúÿñíåíèÿ ìîãóò óñòðîèòü òîëüêî äåáèëüíûõ äåòåé.
Ïîêà, èç òîãî ÷òî óæå èçâåñòíî, âñå ãîâîðèò î òîì ÷òî âåðñèÿ Ðåçóíà ìîæåò è íå àáñîëþòíî ïðàâèëüíàÿ, íî ãîðàçäî áëèæå ê èñòèíå. Íèêàêèõ ïëàíîâ îáîðîíû ïðîñòî íå áûëî, õîòÿ îíè è ìîãëè íàçûâàòüñÿ "Ïëàí îáîðîíû". Èíà÷å íå÷åãî áûëî áû ïðÿòàòü, à íåìöû íå ñìîãëè áû ïðîäâèãàòüñÿ â òåìïå âàëüñà ïî íàøåé òåððèòîðèè, áûñòðåå ÷åì â Ïîëüøå è Ôðàíöèè, êîòîðûå õîòü êàê-òî ãîòîâèëèñü ê îáîðîíå.
Äà è íàïàäåíèå ïî-âèäèìîìó ïëàíèðîâàëîñü ëèáî íå íà Ãåðìàíèþ âïðÿìóþ, ëèáî íå íà íåå
îäíó. Èíà÷å îïÿòü æå íå÷åãî áûëî áû ïðÿòàòü. Çà Ãåðìàíèþ íàì íè÷åãî êðîìå ñïàñèáî íå ãðîçèò.
Äîêóìåíòîâ, äîêàçûâàþùèõ îáðàòíîå - íåò. Òî åñòü îíè åñòü, íî íåäîñòóïíû. Çàòî åñòü ìíîãî àâòîðîâ, ïîääåðæèâàþùèõ âåðñèþ Ðåçóíà. Áåäà â òîì, ÷òî èì òðóäíî íàâåñèòü êëåéìî ïðåäàòåëÿ è ïèäîðà, äà è ñïîðèòü ñ èõ àðãóìåíòàìè ïî-ñëîæíåå. Ïîòîìó ñ íèìè íèêòî è íå ñïîðèò.
Âîçíèêàåò ñïðàâåäëèâûé âîïðîñ, à ïî÷åìó ïðÿ÷óò ýòè äîêóìåíòû? Åñëè ÷åëîâåê ÷òî-òî ñêðûâàåò î ñåáå - ýòî ëèáî ïîñòûäíî, ëèáî ïðåñòóïíî, ëèáî ìîæåò ïðåäñòàâèòü åãî â íåâûãîäíîì âèäå.  ðåäêèõ ñëó÷àÿõ ýòî áûâàåò èç ñêðîìíîñòè. Ñ ãîñóäàðñòâàìè âñå àíàëîãè÷íî.
Íà ìîé âçãëÿä, â äàííîì êîíêðåòíîì ñëó÷àå âñå î÷åíü ïðîñòî, äåëî íå â ñðîêàõ äàâíîñòè, êîòîðûõ äëÿ âîåííûõ ïðåñòóïëåíèé íåò. Âñå êòî ñ íàøåé ñòîðîíû âèíîâåí äàâíî â ìîãèëàõ ó Êðåìëåâñêîé ñòåíû. Âñå äåëî â òîì, ÷òî èäåîëîãè÷åñêèå íàñëåäíèêè òåõ êòî âñå ýòî çàòåâàë, âñå åùå ìå÷òàþò î ðåâàíøå, è îãëàñêà ðîëè èõ "ïðàðîäèòåëåé" ïîñòàâèò íà ýòèõ íàäåæäàõ îêîí÷àòåëüíóþ æèðíóþ òî÷êó. Îáðàòèëè âíèìàíèå íà ðåçóëüòàòû êîíêóðñà "Èìÿ Ðîññèè"?
Ãîñïîäà ïðàâîñëàâíûå-ìîíàðõî-êîììóíî-ñòàëèíöû, Ñîâåòñêîãî Ñîþçà äàâíî óæå íåò,ðàññëàáüòåñü, ïåðåñòàíüòå ïðèêðûâàòüñÿ ñâÿùåííîé âîéíîé, ãåðîèçìîì ïðîñòûõ ñîëäàò è óâàæåíèåì ê âåòåðàíàì. Íå íàäî ïîäìåíÿòü ïîíÿòèÿ. Íà ñâÿòîå íèêòî íå ïîñÿãàåò, äà è âû ê ýòîìó íèêàêîãî îòíîøåíèÿ íå èìååòå. Ðå÷ü èäåò íå î âîéíå, à î òîì ÷òî áûëî äî íåå.
Ïîêàæèòå äîêóìåíòû, êàê è ê êàêîé âîéíå ãîòîâèëèñü è ïî÷åìó ïîäàðèëè ïîëñòðàíû íåìåöêèì êîëëåãàì ïî ëþäîåäñòâó. Ïî÷åìó áåæàëè, áðîñèâ ëþäåé íà ïðîèçâîë îêêóïàíòîâ, à ïîòîì âñåõ ýòèõ ëþäåé ïîäîçðåâàëè â ïðåäàòåëüñòâå, à çàîäíî è èõ äåòåé è åùå íå ðîäèâøèõñÿ âíóêîâ.
Âîò òîãäà è ðàçáåðåìñÿ êòî íà ñàìîì äåëå ïðåñòóïíèê è ïðåäàòåëü, ïèäîð è ëæåö.
Áóäó áëàãîäàðåí, åñëè ïîïðàâèòå è ìîé "àíàëèç ñ ñèíòåçîì".

P.S.Ïîäîçðåâàþ, ÷òî ïî òðàäèöèè ýòîò ïîñò çà îôôòîïèê ìîãóò óäàëèòü, ïîñêîëüêó ðå÷è î òîì êàêîé èñòîðèê Âèêòîð Ñóâîðîâ çäåñü ïî÷òè íåò. Îáåùàþ â ñëåäóùèé ðàç óäåëèòü åìó áîëüøå âíèìàíèÿ.
#304

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 05 2009 19:22:45
Ãîñïîäèíó Áåçäåëüíèêó.

Ãåíîññå, åñëè ëè÷íî âû ÷åãî-òî íå çíàåòå, òî íå íàäî îá ýòîì çàÿâëÿòü âî âñåóñëûøàíèå è óæ òåì áîëåå íå íàäî íà ñîáñòâåííîì íåâåäåíèè äåëàòü èäèîòñêèõ âûâîäîâ è âûïèñûâàòü òóò îãðîìíûå ñîîáùåíèÿ îòêðîâåííîé áåëèáåðäû.

Ìîáïëàí â ÑÑÑÐ ãîòîâèëñÿ íà êàæäûé ãîä è äåéñòâîâàë äî ïðèíÿòèÿ ñëåäóþùåãî. Êîíêðåòíî ìîáïëàí íà 1941 ãîä áûë ïîäïèñàí 12 ôåâðàëÿ 1941 ãîäà, îäíà èç åãî êîïèé õðàíèòñÿ â ÖÀÌÎ ôîíä 16, îïèñü 2154 äåëî 4 ëèñòû 268-281. Êðîìå òîãî, îí áûë îïóáëèêîâàí â 1998 ãîäó â ïåðâîì òîìå äâóõòîìíèêà "1941 ãîä. Äîêóìåíòû". Ýòîé êíèãè âû, êîíå÷íî æå, íå ÷èòàëè. Âû âîîáùå íå ÷èòàåòå äîêóìåíòû, âñå àðõèâíûå äîêóìåíòû âàì çàìåíÿåò Ðåçóí, êîòîðûé ïðèëîæèë âñå óñèëèÿ äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû òå, êòî åìó âåðèò, ïðîäîëæàëè ýòî äåëàòü è âïðåäü. Ïîýòîìó îí çàÿâëÿåò î òîòàëüíîé çàêðûòîñòè âñåõ àðõèâîâ è â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü â ÖÀÌÎ. Îäíàêî ñîñòàâèòåëè ýòîãî äâóõòîìíèêà êàêèì-òî îáðàçîì òóäà ïîïàëè. È äàæå îïóáëèêîâàëè òî, ÷òî òàì íàøëè. À ïîòîì íàøëèñü ëþäè, è îòñêàíèðîâàëè ýòîò òðóä, è âûëîæèëè åãî â èíòåðíåò äëÿ âñåõ, êîìó äåéñòâèòåëüíî èíòåðåñíî. ß íàøåë ýòó ññûëêó ìåíåå, ÷åì çà 5 ìèíóò! ÏßÒÜ ÌÈÍÓÒ ÌÍÅ ÏÎÒÐÅÁÎÂÀËÎÑÜ ÍÀ ÒÎ, ×ÒÎÁÛ ÍÀÉÒÈ ÌÎÁÏËÀÍ ÑÑÑÐ ÍÀ 1941 ÃÎÄ.

È î ÷åì ìíå ãîâîðèòü ïîñëå ýòîãî ñ áîëâàíîì è íåâåæäîé, êîòîðûé äàæå ïÿòè ìèíóò íå ìîæåò ïîòðàòèòü íà òî, î ÷åì ñïîðèò, íî âìåñòî ýòîãî ïðèõîäèò è èìååò íàãëîñòü òóò êàêèå-òî ïðåäúÿâû êèäàòü??

Ïîýòîìó, ãîñïîäèí Áåçäåëüíèê, ÿ íàñòîÿòåëüíî ðåêîìåíäóþ âàì, ïðåæäå ÷åì èçáèðàòü òàêîé èçîáëè÷èòåëüíûé òîí, ïîòðóäèòåñü îçíàêîìèòüñÿ ñ îáñóæäàåìûì âîïðîñîì õîòü íåìíîãî. Åñëè æå âû ïðîäîëæèòå ñâîè íàïàäêè â ïîäîáíîì òîíå, ÿ âàñ ïðîñòî çàáàíþ. Èáî ÷åãî ÿ íå òåðïëþ áîëåå âñåãî - ýòî âîèíñòâóþùåãî íåâåæåñòâà.
#306
bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 07 2009 12:40:26
 îñíîâíîì To V_P:
Íå î÷åíü ïîíÿë, ÷òî âûçâàëî òàêóþ áóðþ ýìîöèé, ÷òî Âû "ðåøèëè îêîí÷àòåëüíî ïåðåéòè íà àíãëèéñêèé". Óïîìèíàíèå êàêîé êàòåãîðèè ëèö Âàñ òàê âîçáóäèëî? Õî÷ó òîëüêî çàìåòèòü,
÷òî íå ñòîèò ðåàãèðîâàòü, åñëè êòî-òî â òîëïå êðèêíóë "íèããåð" èëè "æèäî-ìàññîí" è
ïðèíèìàòü ýòî íà ñâîé ñ÷åò. ß ïîñòóïàþ èìåííî òàê.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå ÿ â ñâîåì ïîñòå íå
èìåë â âèäó àäìèíèñòðàöèþ ôîðóìà èëè êîãî-òî ïåðñîíàëüíî èç ãîñòåé è ïðèíîøó ñâîè
èçâèíåíèÿ åñëè îí êîãî-òî çàäåë, Â äàëüíåéøåì ïîñòàðàþñü áûòü ìàêñèìàëüíî êîððåêòíûì
ïî îòíîøåíèþ ê àäìèíèñòðàöèè è ãîñòÿì ôîðóìà. Â îòâåò îæèäàþ òàêîãî æå îòíîøåíèÿ ê
ñåáå.
Êñòàòè, íåêîòîðûå ôîðóìû ïðàêòèêóþò ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûé ïðîñìîòð ïîñòîâ. Åñëè ïîñò ñîäåðæèò ÷òî-òî íåóñòðàèâàþùåå àäìèíèñòðàòîðà, âñåãäà ìîæíî ïîïðîñèòü Ãîñòÿ èñïðàâèòü ñîäåðæèìîå èëè ñäåëàòü ýòî ñàìîìó.Òåïåðü ñîáñòâåííî ê ñóòè îáñóæäàåìîãî âîïðîñà. Ïðî Ðåçóíà áóäåò îïÿòü æå ìèíèìóì
èíôîðìàöèè, ïîñêîëüêî ÿ íå ñ÷èòàþ ñåáÿ åãî áåçîãîâîðî÷íûì àïîëîãåòîì.
Îáðàòèòå âíèìàíèå, êîãäà ÿ óïîìèíàë î äî ñèõ ïîð çàñåêðå÷åííûõ äîêóìåíòàõ ÿ íå ññûëàëñÿ íà Ðåçóíà, åìó òî òóäà ïóòü òî÷íî çàêàçàí. Ïî-ìîåìó, äîñòàòî÷íî âîò ýòîãî: http://www.rg.ru/2008/05/07/archiv.html http://www.rusarchives.ru/vedarh/camo/service.shtml (3-èé àáçàö ñâåðõó) http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A6%D0%90%D0%9C%D0%9E
Òàê ÷òî íå âñå òàê óæ ÷óäåñíî ñ ðàññåêðå÷èâàíèåì. Êàê â àðõèâû ïîïàëè òå êòî
ñîñòàâëÿë è ðåäàêòèðîâàë ñáîðíèê "1941 ãîä.äîêóìåíòû" ëåãêî ïîíÿòü ïîñìîòðåâ íà
ñïèñîê ðåäñîâåòà è ñîñòàâèòåëåé. È òåì íå ìåíåå è èì íå âñå äîñòóïíî.
Âû óäèâèòåñü, íî ìíå èçâåñòåí ýòîò ñáîðíèê ïðî 41 ãîä, òîëüêî äîêóìåíòû ïðåäñòàâëåííûå â íåì, âûçûâàþò ìíîãî âîïðîñîâ. Ìàññà êóïþð, íåò íè îäíîé êàðòû, ïîâñþäó ñíîñêè - "íå ïóáëèêóåòñÿ", à ïî êàêîé ïðè÷èíå íå óêàçàíî. Ñàì ñáîðíèê ïî÷åìó-òî íà÷èíàåòñÿ ñ èþíÿ 1940 ãîäà, à íå ñ ÿíâàðÿ 41.
Íà÷íåì ñ òîãî, ÷òî âû íàçûâàåòå ÌÏ-1941.

Äîêóìåíòû ¹272 è ¹273, óêàçàííûå Âàìè êàê ÌÏ-1941:
ñòð.607 ¹272 "Çàïèñêà ÍÊÎ ÑÑÑÐ è Ãåíøòàáà Êðàñíîé Àðìèè â Ïîëèòáþðî ÖÊ ÂÊÏ(á) -
È.Â.Ñòàëèíó è ÑÍÊ ÑÑÑÐ - Â.Ì.Ìîëîòîâó ñ èçëîæåíèåì ñõåìû ìîáèëèçàöèîííîãî
ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ Êðàñíîé Àðìèè" á/í (íå ïîçæå 12 ôåâðàëÿ 1941 ã.)
êàê âèäèì äàòèðîâàíèå íå÷åòêîå, à íà ÷åì îñíîâàíî íåèçâåñòíî!
è
ñòð.640 ¹273
"ÏÐÎÅÊÒ ÏÎÑÒÀÍÎÂËÅÍÈß ÑÍÊ ÑÑÑÐ "Î ÌÎÁÈËÈÇÀÖÈÎÍÍÎÌ ÏËÀÍÅ ÍÀ 1941 ÃÎÄ"
12 ôåâðàëÿ 1941ã.
Êñòàòè â áóìàæíîì âàðèàíòå îïå÷àòêà, 72 ôåâðàëÿ.

Ñîãëàñèòåñü, ÷òî "Çàïèñêà" è "ïðîåêò ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ" - ýòî ïîêà åùå íå ïëàí, à ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûå äîêóìåíòû. Äîëæíî åùå áûòü Ïîñòàíîâëåíèå ÑÍÊ óòâåðæäàþùåå ïðîåêò, à åãî íå íàáëþäàåòñÿ, õîòÿ àíàëîãè÷íûå ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ âñòðå÷àþòñÿ â ñáîðíèêå.

Èäåì äàëüøå è îáíàðóæèâàåì òàêîå ÷óäî:
ñòð.741 ¹315
"ÈÇ ÏËÀÍÀ ÃÅÍØÒÀÁÀ ÊÐÀÑÍÎÉ ÀÐÌÈÈ Î ÑÒÐÀÒÅÃÈ×ÅÑÊÎÌ ÐÀÇÂÅÐÒÛÂÀÍÈÈ ÂÎÎÐÓÆÅÍÍÛÕ ÑÈË ÑÎÂÅÒÑÊÎÃÎ ÑÎÞÇÀ ÍÀ ÇÀÏÀÄÅ È ÂÎÑÒÎÊÅ"
á/í 11 ìàðòà 1941 ã.

Ïî÷åìó "Èç ïëàíà...", à íå ïðîñòî "Ïëàí..."?
Èç íàçâàíèÿ ÿñíî, ÷òî äîêóìåíò ïî-âèäèìîìó ÿâëÿåòñÿ îêîí÷àòåëüíûì âàðèàíòîì "Ñîîáðàæåíèé...": http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Russia/USSR/1936-1941/soobr.htm

Íà ñòð.745, ñîâåðøåííî íåîæèäàííî äîêóìåíò îáðûâàåòñÿ òàáëèöåé, íà ñëîâàõ "Ïîëêè àâèàöèè". Êîëè÷åñòâî ïîëêîâ íå óêàçàíî, èç ÷åãî ìîæíî ñäåëàòü âûâîä, ÷òî àâèàöèþ ðàçâîðà÷èâàòü íå ñîáèðàëèñü âîâñå? Îäíàêî... Íè "âñåãî" íè "èòîãî".
Ñðàçó çà òàáëèöåé èäåò âîò ýòî [...], ÷òî î÷åâèäíî îçíà÷àåò "òóò ðûáó çàâîðà÷èâàëè"?
 ñàìîé òàáëèöå î÷åðåäíàÿ îïå÷àòêà ïðî Ôèíñêèé ôðîíò 133:
Äëÿ âåäåíèÿ îïåðàöèè íà çàïàäå è íà Ôèíñêîì ôðîíòå íàçíà÷àþòñÿ:
Íà çàïàäå Íà Ôèíñêîì ôðîíòå Âñåãî
Ñòðåëêîâûå äèâèçèè 158 133 171
Î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî äîëæíî áûòü 33.

Ïðèëîæåíèÿ ê äàííîìó äîêóìåíòó, â îòëè÷èè îò "Ñîîáðàæåíèé..." íå óêàçàíû, õîòÿ ïî
ëîãèêå âåùåé îíè äîëæíû áûòü âîò â òàêîì èëè ïðèìåðíî òàêîì âèäå:
1. ñõåìà pàçâåpòûâàíèÿ íà êàpòå 1: 1.000.000, â 1 ýêç.;
2. ñõåìà pàçâåpòûâàíèÿ íà ïpèêpûòèå íà 3-õ êàpòàõ;
3. ñõåìà ñîîòíîøåíèÿ ñèë, â 1 ýêç.;
4. òpè êàpòû áàçèpîâàíèÿ ÂÂÑ íà çàïàäå.

Åùå Ãîðüêîâ â ñòàòüå "Ãîòîâèë ëè Ñòàëèí óïðåæäàþùèé óäàð ïðîòèâ Ãèòëåðà â 1941 ã." óïîìèíàë 6 ïðèëîæåíèé ê "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿì...", êîòîðûå îñòàþòñÿ ñåêðåòíûìè è ïîýòîìó èì íå îïóáëèêîâàííû. Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîìíþ, òàì áûëè åùå ñàì "Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ" è "Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ íà ïðèêðûòèå" èëè "Ïëàí íàìå÷àåìûõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé".

Íàëèöî ïîëíàÿ êàñòðàöèÿ äîêóìåíòà. Êåì è ñ êàêèìè öåëÿìè ïðîâåäåííàÿ íåâåäîìî.
Âîçíèêàåò âîïðîñ, êàêèå âîåííûå-ãîñóäàðñòâåííûå ñåêðåòû ìîãóò áûòü íà êàðòå òàêîãî
ìàñøòàáà ïî÷òè 70-ëåòíåé äàâíîñòè? Íàïîìíþ ðàçìåðû ýòîãî ñåêðåòíîãî ãëîáóñà ÑÑÑÐ: http://lib.ru/TURIZM/MAPS/blank.txt
Ê òîìó æå èíòåðåñ íà íåé ïðåäñòàâëÿåò â ïîäàâëÿþùåì áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ òåððèòîðèÿ,
äàâíî óæå ÿâëÿþùàÿñÿ äëÿ íàñ çàãðàíèöåé è íå âñåãäà äðóæåñòâåííîé.
Ïðî ñïóòíèêè-øïèîíû è äîñòóïíîñòü ñîâðåìåííûõ êàðò(http://mapsshop.ru/) ÿ äóìàþ
ðàññóæäàòü íåò ñìûñëà?

Öèòàòà ïî ïîâîäó êàðò: http://www.rg.ru/2008/05/07/archiv.html
"ÐÃ: È òàêèå äîêóìåíòû áåñïðåïÿòñòâåííî âûäàþòñÿ? Ãðèô ñåêðåòíîñòè ñ íèõ ñíÿò?
Êàìåíè÷åíêî:  áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ - äà. Íåêîòîðûå îãðàíè÷åíèÿ ñîõðàíÿþòñÿ â îòíîøåíèè âîåííî-òîïîãðàôè÷åñêèõ êàðò êðóïíîãî ìàñøòàáà è òåõ äîêóìåíòîâ, êîòîðûå ìîãóò ñîäåðæàòü ñâåäåíèÿ, îõðàíÿåìûå çàêîíîì î ãîñòàéíå è çàêîíîì îá àðõèâíîì äåëå."

Ðèñêíó ïðåäïîëîæèòü, ÷òî íà êàðòå ðàñïîëîæåíèå âîéñê ñ óêàçàíèåì Ì-Æî, ãäå Æî - ÷èñëî äíåé îò 1 äî íàâåðíîå 25-30, ñàìè çíàåòå ÷òî îáîçíà÷àþùèå.

Ìîæíî åùå ìíîãî ÷åãî íàêîâûðÿòü èç ýòîãî ñáîðíèêà, åñëè íå æàëü ñîáñòâåííîãî âðåìåíè, íî ïî-ìîåìó è òàê óæå äîñòàòî÷íî. Èíòåðåñíûå äîêóìåíòû òàì åñòü, íî ìíîãî è "äîêóìåíòîâ".

Õîòåëîñü áû óñëûøàòü êòî-÷òî äóìàåò ïî ýòîìó ïîâîäó, æåëàòåëüíî áåç êîíñòðóêòèâíûõ êîììåíòàðèåâ òèïà "ïðèäóðîê è íåâåæäà".
Íàäåþñü íà ýòîò ðàç ìîé òîí íèêîãî íå çàäåë.
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V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 07 2009 15:07:18
bezdelnick ïèñàë(à):
 îñíîâíîì To V_P:
Íå î÷åíü ïîíÿë, ÷òî âûçâàëî òàêóþ áóðþ ýìîöèé, ÷òî Âû "ðåøèëè îêîí÷àòåëüíî ïåðåéòè íà àíãëèéñêèé". Óïîìèíàíèå êàêîé êàòåãîðèè ëèö Âàñ òàê âîçáóäèëî? Õî÷ó òîëüêî çàìåòèòü,
÷òî íå ñòîèò ðåàãèðîâàòü, åñëè êòî-òî â òîëïå êðèêíóë "íèããåð" èëè "æèäî-ìàññîí" è
ïðèíèìàòü ýòî íà ñâîé ñ÷åò. ß ïîñòóïàþ èìåííî òàê.  ëþáîì ñëó÷àå ÿ â ñâîåì ïîñòå íå
èìåë â âèäó àäìèíèñòðàöèþ ôîðóìà èëè êîãî-òî ïåðñîíàëüíî èç ãîñòåé è ïðèíîøó ñâîè
èçâèíåíèÿ åñëè îí êîãî-òî çàäåë, Â äàëüíåéøåì ïîñòàðàþñü áûòü ìàêñèìàëüíî êîððåêòíûì
ïî îòíîøåíèþ ê àäìèíèñòðàöèè è ãîñòÿì ôîðóìà. Â îòâåò îæèäàþ òàêîãî æå îòíîøåíèÿ ê
ñåáå.


Íå ïîíèìàþ, î êàêîì àíãëèéñêîì âû ãîâîðèòå.
Áóðþ ýìîéöèé, êàê ÿ óæå ñêàçàë, ó ìåíÿ âñåãäà âûçûâàåò âîíèñòâóþùåå íåâåæåñòâî. Òî, ÷òî âû íå ïîòäðóäèâøèñü ðàçîáðàòüñÿ â ñóòè ïðîáëåìû, ñòàëè ñûïàòü âîïðîñàìè è îáëè÷èòåëüíûìè òèðàäàìè, âîñïðèíèìàåòñÿ èìåííî òàê.

Êñòàòè, íåêîòîðûå ôîðóìû ïðàêòèêóþò ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûé ïðîñìîòð ïîñòîâ. Åñëè ïîñò ñîäåðæèò ÷òî-òî íåóñòðàèâàþùåå àäìèíèñòðàòîðà, âñåãäà ìîæíî ïîïðîñèòü Ãîñòÿ èñïðàâèòü ñîäåðæèìîå èëè ñäåëàòü ýòî ñàìîìó.

ß íå àäìèíèñòðèðóþ ýòîò ôîðóì. Íàø àäìèí, âåðîÿòíî, èìååò îïðåäåëåííîå ìíåíèå êàñàåìî åãî íûíåøíåé ïîëèòèêè, âû âîëüíû îáñóäèòü ýòî ñ íèì, íî íå ñî ìíîé.

Òåïåðü ñîáñòâåííî ê ñóòè îáñóæäàåìîãî âîïðîñà. Ïðî Ðåçóíà áóäåò îïÿòü æå ìèíèìóì
èíôîðìàöèè, ïîñêîëüêî ÿ íå ñ÷èòàþ ñåáÿ åãî áåçîãîâîðî÷íûì àïîëîãåòîì.
Îáðàòèòå âíèìàíèå, êîãäà ÿ óïîìèíàë î äî ñèõ ïîð çàñåêðå÷åííûõ äîêóìåíòàõ ÿ íå ññûëàëñÿ íà Ðåçóíà, åìó òî òóäà ïóòü òî÷íî çàêàçàí. Ïî-ìîåìó, äîñòàòî÷íî âîò ýòîãî: http://www.rg.ru/2008/05/07/archiv.html http://www.rusarchives.ru/vedarh/camo/service.shtml (3-èé àáçàö ñâåðõó) http://ru.wikipedia.org/wiki/%D0%A6%D0%90%D0%9C%D0%9E
Òàê ÷òî íå âñå òàê óæ ÷óäåñíî ñ ðàññåêðå÷èâàíèåì. Êàê â àðõèâû ïîïàëè òå êòî
ñîñòàâëÿë è ðåäàêòèðîâàë ñáîðíèê "1941 ãîä.äîêóìåíòû" ëåãêî ïîíÿòü ïîñìîòðåâ íà
ñïèñîê ðåäñîâåòà è ñîñòàâèòåëåé.


À ñêàæèòå, êàê â àðõèâ ïîïàë ÿ? Íèêàêèõ íàó÷íûõ çâàíèé ó ìåíÿ íåò, íèêàêèõ òàéíûõ ïîâåëèòåëåé â ëàìïàñàõ òîæå. Îäíàêî â ÖÀÌÎ ìåíÿ ïóñòèëè ëèøü ïî ïàñïîðòó è ñïðàâêå ñ ìåñòà ðàáîòû.
À êàê òóäà ïîïàë Àðòåì Äðàáêèí, âåäóùèé ñàéòà ß Ïîìíþ? Îí ïîïàë òóäà òàêæå ñ îáùåãðàæäàíñêèì ïàñïîðòîì è çàïðîñîì âîåíêîìàòà íà ïîèñê ðîäñòâåííèêîâ. Èëè ìû ñ íèì òîæå "èçáðàííûå"?

ÕÂÀÒÈÒ ÏÎÂÒÎÐßÒÜ ÑÊÀÇÊÈ ÏÐÎ ÇÀÊÐÛÒÛ ÀÐÕÈÂÛ - âîò òàê ÿ âàì ñêàæó. Ýòî óæå çàäîëáàëî ñëûøàòü îò ëþäåé, êîòîðûå íèêîãäà íå ïðåäïðèíèìàëè äàæå ìàëåéøåé ïîïûòêè òóäà ïîïàñòü.

È òåì íå ìåíåå è èì íå âñå äîñòóïíî.

È ÷òî òàêîãî? Äà, â ëþáîì àðõèâå åñòü ðàçíûå óðîâíè äîïóñêà. Ýòî åñòü â ëþáîì (ïîä÷åðêèâàþ - â ËÞÁÎÌ) àðõèâå. Äàæå â ñàìîì áåçîáèäíîì. Äëÿ ïðîõîäà â ñåêðåòíûå ôîíäû íóæíî èìåòü îïðåäåëåííûé óðîâåíü äîïóñêà. Ê îòêðûòîé ïóáëèêàöèè òîæå äîñòóïíî íå âñå è ýòî êàñàåòñÿ òîæå íå òîëüêî ÖÀÌÎ.

Òîëüêî ïðèìèòèâíûé äóðàê ïîëàãàåò, ÷òî "ðàç çàñåêðå÷åíî, çíà÷èò èì åñòü ÷òî ñêðûâàòü". Ïðèìåðû? Íàïðèìåð, â ÖÀÌÎ çàñåêðå÷åí âåñü òðîôåéíûé ôîíä. Èëè çàñåêðå÷åí âåñü ëåíä-ëèç. Óæ ëåíäëèç-òî ÷åãî áûëî ñåêðåòèòü? Íàì ñêðûâàòü âðîäå íå÷åãî. À çàñåêðåòèëè åãî âîâñå íå ïî íàøåé èíèöèàòèâå, à ïî çàïðîñó ãîñäåïà ÑØÀ.
Èëè, ñêàæåì, ïî÷åìó õèìñîñòàâ áðîíè òàíêà Ò-34 áûë ñåêðåòíûì ïî÷òè 50 ëåò, õîòÿ ýòè òàíêè ðàñïðîñòðàíåíû ïî âñåìó ìèðó, à òåõíîëîãèè ïðîèçâîäñòâà ýòîé áðîíè óñòàðåëè åùå ïîëâåêà íàçàä? Èëè â áðîíå Ò-34 íàì òîæå "åñòü ÷òî ñêðûâàòü"? Àãà, íàâåðíîå â åå õèìôîðìóëå çàøèôðîâàíû òàéíûå ïëàíû Ñòàëèíà ïî ïîðàáîùåíèþ Åâðîïû

Âû óäèâèòåñü, íî ìíå èçâåñòåí ýòîò ñáîðíèê ïðî 41 ãîä, òîëüêî äîêóìåíòû ïðåäñòàâëåííûå â íåì, âûçûâàþò ìíîãî âîïðîñîâ. Ìàññà êóïþð, íåò íè îäíîé êàðòû, ïîâñþäó ñíîñêè - "íå ïóáëèêóåòñÿ", à ïî êàêîé ïðè÷èíå íå óêàçàíî.

Òàê âñå-òàêè àðõèâíûå äîêóìåíòû ïóáëèêóþòñÿ? Äà??? À òî òóò âû çàëàìûâàëè ðóêè, ÷òî, ìîë, âîîáùå âñå ïîêðûòî ìðàêîì.

Íå ïóáëèêîâàòüñÿ èëè ïóáëèêîâàòüñÿ ñ êóïþðàìè äîêóìåíòû ìîãóò ïî âïîëíå ïðîçàè÷åñêèì ïðè÷èíàì. Íàïðèìåð, èçëèøíå çàòðàòû íà ïå÷àòü íåôîðìàòíûõ êàðò. À êóïþðû ìîãóò áûòü èç-çà ìàëîöåííîé èíôîðìàöèè â îïóùåííîì êóñêå. Åñëè áû ñàìè õîòü ðàç ïîáûâàëè â àðõèâå è ïîãëÿäèëå íà òå äîêóìåíòû ñâîèìè ãëàçàìè - ýòè âîïðîñû ó âàñ îòïàëè áû ñàìè ñîáîé.

Ñàì ñáîðíèê ïî÷åìó-òî íà÷èíàåòñÿ ñ èþíÿ 1940 ãîäà, à íå ñ ÿíâàðÿ 41.
Íà÷íåì ñ òîãî, ÷òî âû íàçûâàåòå ÌÏ-1941.


Âû íåäîâîëüíû òåì, ÷òî òàì îïóáëèêîâàíî áîëüøå äîêóìåíòîâ, ÷åì çàÿâëåíî? Ýòî âûçûâàåò ó âàñ ñàìûå òåìíûå ïðåäïîëîæåíèÿ?

Ñîãëàñèòåñü, ÷òî "Çàïèñêà" è "ïðîåêò ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ" - ýòî ïîêà åùå íå ïëàí, à ïðåäâàðèòåëüíûå äîêóìåíòû. Äîëæíî åùå áûòü Ïîñòàíîâëåíèå ÑÍÊ óòâåðæäàþùåå ïðîåêò, à åãî íå íàáëþäàåòñÿ, õîòÿ àíàëîãè÷íûå ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ âñòðå÷àþòñÿ â ñáîðíèêå.

Ïðîåêò ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ î ìîáïëàíå áûë ïðèíÿò è ïîäïèñàí. Òàê ÷òî òî, ÷òî âû ÷èòàëè - ýòî è åñòü ìîáïëàí ÂÑ.  ñáîðíèêå íåò ïîñòàíîâëåíèÿ î ïðèíÿòèè - åãî ìîãëè íå íàéòè, èëè íàøëè, íî ïîñ÷èòàëè åãî ìåíåå öåííûì, ÷åì äðóãèå. Ïîåçæàéòå è ðàçáåðèòåñü â ýòîì âîïðîñå ñàìè! Ñèäåòü â óþòíîì êðåñíå è, íå ïðèêëàäûâàÿ òðóäà, âûäâèãàòü êàêèå-òî ïðåäïîëîæåíèÿ, ýòî íåñåðüåçíî. Ïðîâåäèòå ñâîå ðàññëåäîâàíèå âîïðîñà è òîãäà óæå, îïèðàÿñü íà ñâîé ëè÷íûé îïûò, âû ñìîæåòå ÷òî-òî âûäâèãàòü èëè îïðîâåðãàòü. Ýòî áóäåò ñåðüåçíî è äîñòîéíî óâàæåíèÿ. Âî âñÿêîì ñëó÷àå - äîñòîéíî âíèìàíèÿ. À ñåé÷àñ - óâû.


Èäåì äàëüøå è îáíàðóæèâàåì òàêîå ÷óäî:
ñòð.741 ¹315
"ÈÇ ÏËÀÍÀ ÃÅÍØÒÀÁÀ ÊÐÀÑÍÎÉ ÀÐÌÈÈ Î ÑÒÐÀÒÅÃÈ×ÅÑÊÎÌ ÐÀÇÂÅÐÒÛÂÀÍÈÈ ÂÎÎÐÓÆÅÍÍÛÕ ÑÈË ÑÎÂÅÒÑÊÎÃÎ ÑÎÞÇÀ ÍÀ ÇÀÏÀÄÅ È ÂÎÑÒÎÊÅ"
á/í 11 ìàðòà 1941 ã.

Ïî÷åìó "Èç ïëàíà...", à íå ïðîñòî "Ïëàí..."?


Ïîòîìó ÷òî âåñü ïëàí ñòðàò.ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ - ýòî âåñüìà îáúåìíûé äîêóìåíò íà ñîòíè ñòðàíèö è åãî ïóáëèêàöèÿ âûëüåòñÿ â åùå îäèí äîïîëíèòåëüíûé òîì ïëþñ àëüáîì ñ êàðòàìè.  áþäæåò ñáîðíèêà äîêóìåíòîâ ýòî íèêàê íå âõîäèò. È ëè÷íî âû âìåñòî âîçìóùåíèÿ äîñëæíû ñïàñèáî ñêàçàòü ñîñòàâèòåëÿì, ÷òî îíè ïðî÷èòàëè, îñîçíàëè, âûäåëèëè ãëàâíîå è íàèáîëåå èíòåðåñíîå, è íàïå÷àòàëè ýòîò êóñîê.

Èç íàçâàíèÿ ÿñíî, ÷òî äîêóìåíò ïî-âèäèìîìó ÿâëÿåòñÿ îêîí÷àòåëüíûì âàðèàíòîì "Ñîîáðàæåíèé...": http://www.tuad.nsk.ru/~history/Russia/USSR/1936-1941/soobr.htm

Òàê ýòî "ÿñíî" èëè "ïîâèäèìîìó"?
Ïëàí - ýòî ïëàí, à ñîîáðàæåíèÿ "ïî ïëàíó ñòðàò.ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ..." - ýòî ñîîáðàæåíèÿ. Ïîñëåäíèé íàéäåííûé íà ñåãîäíÿ ÷åðíîâèê "ñîîáðàæåíèé" âîîáùå äàòèðóåòñÿ ìàåì 1941 ãîäà.

Åùå Ãîðüêîâ â ñòàòüå "Ãîòîâèë ëè Ñòàëèí óïðåæäàþùèé óäàð ïðîòèâ Ãèòëåðà â 1941 ã." óïîìèíàë 6 ïðèëîæåíèé ê "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿì...", êîòîðûå îñòàþòñÿ ñåêðåòíûìè è ïîýòîìó èì íå îïóáëèêîâàííû. Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîìíþ, òàì áûëè åùå ñàì "Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ" è "Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ íà ïðèêðûòèå" èëè "Ïëàí íàìå÷àåìûõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé".

Âñå ýòî ïóñòü îñòàåòñÿ íà ñîâåñòè Ãîðüêîãî. Íå õî÷ó êîììåíòèðîâàòü. Ñêàæó ëèøü, ÷òî ïëàí ïðèêðûòèÿ ãîñãðàíèöû íà 1941 ãîä â îáñóæäàåìîì äâóõòîìíèêå åñòü òî÷íî.

Öèòàòà ïî ïîâîäó êàðò: http://www.rg.ru/2008/05/07/archiv.html
"ÐÃ: È òàêèå äîêóìåíòû áåñïðåïÿòñòâåííî âûäàþòñÿ? Ãðèô ñåêðåòíîñòè ñ íèõ ñíÿò?
Êàìåíè÷åíêî:  áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ - äà. Íåêîòîðûå îãðàíè÷åíèÿ ñîõðàíÿþòñÿ â îòíîøåíèè âîåííî-òîïîãðàôè÷åñêèõ êàðò êðóïíîãî ìàñøòàáà è òåõ äîêóìåíòîâ, êîòîðûå ìîãóò ñîäåðæàòü ñâåäåíèÿ, îõðàíÿåìûå çàêîíîì î ãîñòàéíå è çàêîíîì îá àðõèâíîì äåëå."


È ÷òî âàì åùå íàäî? Âàì ÷åëîâåê îòâåòèë - "áîëüøèíñòâå ñëó÷àåâ - äà".

Ìîæíî åùå ìíîãî ÷åãî íàêîâûðÿòü èç ýòîãî ñáîðíèêà, åñëè íå æàëü ñîáñòâåííîãî âðåìåíè, íî ïî-ìîåìó è òàê óæå äîñòàòî÷íî. Èíòåðåñíûå äîêóìåíòû òàì åñòü, íî ìíîãî è "äîêóìåíòîâ".

Ñäåëàéòå ëó÷øå! Êðèòèêîâàòü ëåãêî. Êîíå÷íî, ñáîðíèê íå èäåàëåí, íî ëè÷íî ÿ ñêàæó - ñïàñèáî, ÷òî îí âîîáùå åñòü, ó÷èòûâàÿ òî, íàñêîëüêî êîììåð÷åñêè íåâûãîäíî èçäàâàòü òàêèå êíèãè. ãîâîðþ âàì êàê ÷åëîâåê îòäàâøèé ïî÷òè 10 ëåò èçäàòåëüñêîìó áèçíåñó. Åñëè íå âåðèòå - ïîïðîáóéòå ïðåäëîæèòü íàïå÷àòàòü ïîäîáíûé ñáîðíèê ëþáîìó èçäàòåëüñòâó. À ïîòîì ìû ñ âàìè îáñóäèì ðåçóëüòàòû... åñëè áóäåò ÷òî îáñóæäàòü.

Íàäåþñü íà ýòîò ðàç ìîé òîí íèêîãî íå çàäåë.

Ãîðàçäî ëó÷øå!
#308
boba
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 11 2009 15:25:31
íå çíàþ êàê âàì à ìíå ïðîñòî ñòûäíî ïåðåä íàøèìè âåòåðàíàìè, ìîÿ áàáêà öàðñòâî åé íåáåñíîå óøëà íà ôðîíò â 43ì, êàê ðàç â èþíå, â àâãóñòå åå óæå äåìáåëüíóëè ïî èíâàëèäíîñòè ñ êîíòóçèåé, îíà 2 ãîäà íå ìîãëà ãîâîðèòü è ÿ âîò äóìàþ êàê áû ìíå îíà îòâåòèëà åñëèá ÿ åé ñå÷àñ îïðîêèíóë òèïà -"Áàáóëü à òû âêóðñàõ ÷òî ìû ïðîñòî íå óñïåëè ? ÷òî íåìöû íàñ íà êàêîé òî ìåñÿö îïåðåäèëè ÷òî ÌÛ äîëæíû áûëè íà÷àòü âñþ åòó âîçíþ?"-.Çíàÿ ñâîþ áàáóøêó ÿ âàì âñåì ñ óâåðåíîñòüþ ñêàæó ÷òî îíà ñíà÷àëà îáìàòåðèëà áû ìåíÿ à ïîòîì ïðîêëÿëà íàâñåãäà è òàê áû ñäåëàë êàæäûé êòî òàì áûë êòî ýòî âñå âèäåë è âûíåñ íà ñîáñòâåííûõ ïëå÷àõ.Ýòîò ñàé íàçûâàåòñÿ "ß Ïîìíþ" ñàéò âîñïîìèíàíèé âåòåðàíîâ ,íå âîñïîìèíàíèé Ñòàëèíà Æóêîâà Ðîêîñîâñêîãî èëè çàïàäíûõ ïîëèòèêîâ è âîåíî÷àëüíèêîâ è òî ÷òî àâòîð ðàçìåñòèë ýòó ñòàòüþ èìåííî çäåñü åìó çà ýòî áîëüøîé ïëþñ.×òî êàñàåòñÿ ðåçóíà, âåäü äåëî â òîì ÷òî åãî äåñòâèòåëüíî íå âîñïðèíèìàþò êàê èññëåäîâàòåëÿ íå íàøè èñòîðèêè íå çàïàäíûå, ïîòîìó êàê îò íåãî çàêàçóõîé ðàçèò àæ íà êèëîìåòð, âåäü ó íàñ è ñå÷àñ êó÷à íåíàâèñòíèêîâ ñòàëèíñêîãî äà è âààáùå êîììóíèñòè÷åñêîãî ðåæèìà,ÍÎ 9 ìàÿ ìû òàêè ïðàçäíóåì è ïîìíèì êàêàÿ ñòðàíà âûèãðàëà òó âîéíó è ñâÿòî ÷òèì èõ ïîäâèãè! Åùå ðàç ïîâòîðþñü ñòàòüÿ ýòî ìíåíèå àâòîðà ïî íåé âèäíî ÷òî ÷åëîâåê íå ïîëåíèëñÿ è ïëîòíî ïîðàáîòàë ñ äîêóìåíòàìè.Îí íå íàâÿçûâàåò íàì( â îòëè÷èå îò ðåçóíà)îí äåëèòñÿ ñâîèìè âûâîäàìè è ðàçìûøëåíèÿìè è íå ñîãëàñèòüñÿ ñ íèì ïîðîé òðóäíîâàòî.
 êîöå õî÷åòñÿ äîáàâèòü ÷òî êàê áû òàì íèáûëî õîòåëè ëè ìû íàïàñòü èëè íåò íàïàëè íà íàñ è ýòî ôàêò ñ íèì íåëüçÿ íå ñîãëàñèòüñÿ.À åñëè ñòàëèí è õîòåë íàïàñòü òî åãî óæå äàâíî íåò â æèâûõ ,à âîò âåòåðàíû åùå æèâû ,è ýòà ñòàòüÿ åñòü ìàëåíüêàÿ êàïëÿ áàëüçàìà íà èõ çàñòàðåëûå ðàíû ïîòîìó êàê â ïîñëåäíåå âðåìÿ ñëèøêîì ìíîãî óðîäîâ ïûòàþòñÿ îòíÿòü èõ çàñëóæåíóþ êðîâüþ è ñëåçàìè ïîáåäó.
#318
bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 13 2009 19:00:23
ß ïîïðîáóþ ïîñåòèòü ÖÀÌÎ è ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî ïîñìîòðåòü òî, ÷òî ìíå èíòåðåñíî, õîòÿ ñïðàâêè ñ ðàáîòû ó ìåíÿ íåò è áûòü íå ìîæåò. Íàäåþñü ýòî íå ïîìåøàåò. Äî ñèõ ïîð ýòîãî íå ñäåëàë, ïîòîìó ÷òî ýòî íèêàê íå îòíîñèòñÿ ê ñôåðå ìîèõ ïðîôåññèîíàëüíûõ èíòåðåñîâ. Äà è íåçà÷åì âñÿêèì áåçäåëüíèêàì òèïà ìåíÿ ïî ó÷ðåæäåíèÿì è ìåøàòü çàíÿòûì ëþäÿì.
Êàñàòåëüíî äîêóìåíòà ñòð.741 ¹315 "ÈÇ ÏËÀÍÀ ÃÅÍØÒÀÁÀ ÊÐÀÑÍÎÉ ÀÐÌÈÈ Î ÑÒÐÀÒÅÃÈ×ÅÑÊÎÌ ÐÀÇÂÅÐÒÛÂÀÍÈÈ ÂÎÎÐÓÆÅÍÍÛÕ ÑÈË ÑÎÂÅÒÑÊÎÃÎ ÑÎÞÇÀ ÍÀ ÇÀÏÀÄÅ È ÂÎÑÒÎÊÅ" á/í 11 ìàðòà 1941 ã. ÖÀ ÌÎ ÐÔ. Ô. 16. Îï.2951. Ä.241. Ëë. 1-16. Ïî-ìîåìó î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî ýòî êóñîê òîãî ñàìîãî äîêóìåíòà, î êîòîðîì ãîâîðèòñÿ â "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿõ...". Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîíèìàþ "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿ..." - ýòî ïðåäëîæåíèÿ ïî åãî êîððåêòèðîâêå. È â ïëàíå íå òàê óæ ìíîãî ëèñòîâ, âñåãî 16. Íàâåðíÿêà, òàì åñòü äîïîëíèòåëüíûå ìàòåðèàëû è ïðèëîæåíèÿ, íî íà íèõ íåò íèêàêèõ ññûëîê, äàæå ñ ïîìåòêîé "íå ïóáëèêóåòñÿ". ß åùå ðàç ïðîñìîòðåë âåñü ñáîðíèê è íå íàøåë âòîðîãî äîêóìåíòà, ñ êîòîðûì òàê ñòðàííî îáîøëèñü áû. À âåäü â ïðåäèñëîâèè ãîâîðèòñÿ: "Îíè ïóáëèêóþòñÿ, êàê ïðàâèëî, â ïîëíîì âèäå (êóïþðû ñäåëàíû òîëüêî â òåõ ñëó÷àÿõ, åñëè â äîêóìåíòå çàòðîíóòû âîïðîñû, íå èìåþùèå îòíîøåíèÿ ê òåìàòèêå ñáîðíèêà)". Óæ ê ýòîìó äîêóìåíòó ýòî íèêàê íå îòíîñèòñÿ. Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ ýòî - êîãäà, ÷òî è ãäå äîëæíî íàõîäèòüñÿ è ñ êàêèìè öåëÿìè. Åñëè óæ àâòîðû çàäàëèñü öåëüþ äîêàçàòü íåãîòîâíîñòü ÑÑÑÐ ê âîéíå, íàäî áûëî ýòî â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü ïîêàçàòü. Ãäå òàì ÷òî íåäîðàçâåðíóëè â êàêóþ íàäî ñòîðîíó? Íà÷àëîñü ëè âûïîëíåíèå ýòîãî ïëàíà âîîáùå, åñëè íà÷àëîñü òî êîãäà? Ìíîæåñòâî ñîâåðøåííî íåíóæíûõ äîêóìåíòîâ ïðèâåäåíû ïîëíîñòüþ, à îò Ïëàíà ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ, îñòàëèñü ðîæêè äà íîæêè, 3-4 ñòðàíè÷êè. ß óæå ìîë÷ó ïðî êàðòû, íî 16 ëèñòîâ òî ìîæíî áûëî íàïå÷àòàòü èëè õîòÿ áû òàáëèöó ïîëíîñòüþ. Òî åñòü ó íàñ âîîáùå íè÷åãî íå áûëî ðàçâåðíóòî? À ÷òî òîãäà íåìöû ó ãðàíèöû ãðîìèëè? Êîíå÷íî, ñâÿòîå ïðàâî ñîñòàâèòåëåé âûáðàòü òî, ÷òî îíè ñ÷èòàþò íóæíûì. Íî âñå, ÷òî íè äåëàåòñÿ èìååò êàêóþ-òî öåëü, êàêîâà îíà ó ýòîãî ñáîðíèêà? À ýòî âèäíî èç ïðåäèñëîâèÿ.
Ïîñëå åãî ïðî÷òåíèÿ âñå æåëàíèå áëàãîäàðèòü çà ðàñêðûòûå òàéíû ïðîïàäàåò, à õî÷åòñÿ ïðèùåìèòü èì ïàëüöû äâåðüþ, ÷òîáû âîîáùå áîëüøå íå ïèñàëè ïðåäèñëîâèé: "æèçíåííî íåîáõîäèìûå ìåðû íå áûëè ïðèíÿòû, ÷òî ÿâèëîñü çàêîíîìåðíûì ñëåäñòâèåì ñòðàòåãè÷åñêîãî ïðîñ÷åòà È.Ñòàëèíà, ðàññ÷èòûâàâøåãî ïðîäëèòü "ìèðíóþ ïåðåäûøêó" íå ìåíåå, ÷åì äî ñåðåäèíû 1942 ãîäà.  êîíå÷íîì ñ÷åòå âñå ýòî âûëèëîñü â òÿã÷àéøåå ïðåñòóïëåíèå Ñòàëèíà ïåðåä ñîâåòñêèì íàðîäîì."
"Ñòðàøíóþ ïðàâäó î íà÷àëå âîéíû òùàòåëüíî îáåðåãàëè è ïîñëå ñìåðòè Ñòàëèíà, òàê êàê îíà, ýòà ïðàâäà - ïðèãîâîð ðåæèìó, ýòà ïðàâäà î åãî ïðåñòóïëåíèÿõ, çà êîòîðûå áûëî çàïëà÷åíî ìèëëèîíàìè æèçíåé, íåèìîâåðíûìè ñòðàäàíèÿìè íàðîäà." Òàê ïðîñ÷åòû, îøèáêè èëè ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ? È â ÷åì ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ? Ïðàâ Ðåçóí ïðàâ, åñëè áû íå ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ Ñòàëèíà, âñå áûëî áû õîðîøî.
À âîò îêàçûâàåòñÿ â ÷åì ïðåñòóïëåíèå:
"Âîåííîïëåííûõ Ñòàëèí ïðåñëåäîâàë äî êîíöà èõ æèçíè, íàïðàâèâ èõ ïîñëå âîéíû â ñîâåòñêèå êîíöåíòðàöèîííûå ëàãåðÿ. Ýòî ðåøåíèå Ñòàëèíà áûëî âåëè÷àéøèì ïðåñòóïëåíèåì XX ñòîëåòèÿ."
Ñëåäóåò ïîíèìàòü, ÷òî âñåõ äî åäèíîãî ñãíîèëè è íèêòî èç òåõ ëàãåðåé íå âåðíóëñÿ?
À Îñâåíöèì, Ìàéäàíåê, Çàêñåíõàóçåí, Ñàëàñïèëñ, Áàáèé ßð è ò.ï. çàâåäåíèÿ è ìåðîïðèÿòèÿ ýòî ôèãíÿ, â ðåéòèíãå ïðåñòóïëåíèé ÕÕ âåêà âñå ýòî íèæå ×èêàòèëî?
Îíè âñå âìåñòå êóðèëè èëè ãðèáêîâ ïîåëè?
ß ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ñîîòâåòñòâåííî âçãëÿäàì è ïîñòàâëåííûì öåëÿì è îòíîøåíèå ó ýòèõ "òîâàðèùåé" ê äîêóìåíòàì. Êîðî÷å, "òåìà ñåêñà" íå ðàñêðûòà. Òàê ÷òî íå çà ÷òî èì "ñïàñèáî", õâàòèò ñ íèõ çàðïëàòû ñ ãîíîðàðîì. À âåäü íàâåðíÿêà ïîëó÷èëè, äà åùå è áëàãîäàðíîñòü îò ÅÁÍà.

Èçâèíèòå åñëè ìîé òîí îïÿòü ïîêàçàëñÿ êîìó-òî îáëè÷èòåëüíûì, íî ðåàëüíî óäèâëÿåò êîãäà â îäíèõ "ïðîèçâåäåíèÿõ" âñå ñ óäîâîëüñòâèåì ðàçáèðàþò êàæäîå ñëîâî, à â äðóãèõ íè÷åãî òàêîãî íå çàìå÷àþò. Òàê, ìåëêèå íåäîñòàòêè.
P.S. Çà÷èòàë îò íå÷åãî äåëàòü "Íåïðàâäà Âèêòîðà Ñóâîðîâà" è "Êîãäà íà÷àëàñü è çàêîí÷èëàñü 2 ìèðîâàÿ âîéíà" - ìåñòàìè õîõîòàë äî êîëèêîâ, òàêîé æå áðåä êàê â ýòîì ïðåäèñëîâèè...
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RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Jan 13 2009 20:27:45
bezdelnick ïèñàë(à):
ß ïîïðîáóþ ïîñåòèòü ÖÀÌÎ è ñàìîñòîÿòåëüíî ïîñìîòðåòü òî, ÷òî ìíå èíòåðåñíî, õîòÿ ñïðàâêè ñ ðàáîòû ó ìåíÿ íåò è áûòü íå ìîæåò. Íàäåþñü ýòî íå ïîìåøàåò.

ß áû ðåêîìåíäîâàë ñïåðâà èì äîçâîíèòüñÿ ïî òåëåôîíó è âûÿñíèòü êàêèå ó íèõ ïðàâèëà è ÷òî èì íàäî èç äîêóìåíòîâ. À çàîäíî çàïàñèòåñü îòâåòîì íà âîïðîñ "çà÷åì âàì â àðõèâ". Îòâåò "ïîãëàçåòü" íå ïðîêàòèò. ß âàì ïðèâåë äâà ðàçíûõ îòâåòà, ñâîé è Äðàáêèíà. Äðàáêèí ñêàçàë (è äîêóìåíòàëüíî ïîäòâåðäèë), ÷òî çàíèìàåòñÿ ðîçûñêîì áîåâîãî ïóòè ñâîåãî îòöà, ÿ - ïðèíåñ ñïðàâêó ñ ðàáîòû, ÷òî ïîñåùåíèå àðõèâà ñâÿçàíî ñ ìîåé ïðîôåññèîíàëüíîé äåÿòåëüíîñòüþ.

Äà è íåçà÷åì âñÿêèì áåçäåëüíèêàì òèïà ìåíÿ ïî ó÷ðåæäåíèÿì è ìåøàòü çàíÿòûì ëþäÿì.

ß îõîòíî ðàçäåëÿþ òàêîå ìíåíèå, ÷òî íå íàäî êàæäîìó ïðîõîæåìó ëàçàòü â àðõèâ. Íî â ýòîì ñëó÷àå íàäî ñ áëàãîäàðíîñòüþ îòíîñèòñÿ ê òåì èññëåäîâàòåëÿì, êòî òóäà õîäèò, êòî òðàòèò òàì ìåñÿöû è ãîäû(!), îòáèðàÿ äîêóìåíòû, ïîðîé ïåðåïèñûâàÿ èõ âðó÷íóþ(!) è ïåðå÷åð÷èâàÿ âðó÷íóþ-æå êàðòû (êñåðîêîïèÿ â ÖÀÌÎ ïîÿâèëàñü íå òàê äàâíî, à ðàíüøå âñå áðàëè ñ ñîáîé êàðàíäàø è òåòðàäü ñ ïðîíóìåðîâàííûìè è ïðîøèòûìè ñòðàíèöàìè è âñå àðõèâíûå äîêóìåíòû ïåðåïèñûâàëè âðó÷íóþ - òðóä àäñêèé!), à ïîòîì êàêèì-òî îáðàçîì èçûñêèâàëè ñðåäñòâà íà ïóáëèêàöèþ òàêèõ ñáîðíèêîâ, ïîòîìó ÷òî, ïîä÷åðêíó åùå ðàç, ýòî äåëî êîììåð÷åñêè óáûòî÷íîå. Ïîýòîìó òîëüêî ñïàñèáî ýòèì ëþäÿì, è áåç âñÿêèõ ÷åðíûõ ïîäîçðåíèé "ðàç íå îïóáëèêîâàëè, çíà÷èò åñòü ÷òî ñêðûâàòü".

Êàñàòåëüíî äîêóìåíòà ñòð.741 ¹315 "ÈÇ ÏËÀÍÀ ÃÅÍØÒÀÁÀ ÊÐÀÑÍÎÉ ÀÐÌÈÈ Î ÑÒÐÀÒÅÃÈ×ÅÑÊÎÌ ÐÀÇÂÅÐÒÛÂÀÍÈÈ ÂÎÎÐÓÆÅÍÍÛÕ ÑÈË ÑÎÂÅÒÑÊÎÃÎ ÑÎÞÇÀ ÍÀ ÇÀÏÀÄÅ È ÂÎÑÒÎÊÅ" á/í 11 ìàðòà 1941 ã. ÖÀ ÌÎ ÐÔ. Ô. 16. Îï.2951. Ä.241. Ëë. 1-16. Ïî-ìîåìó î÷åâèäíî, ÷òî ýòî êóñîê òîãî ñàìîãî äîêóìåíòà, î êîòîðîì ãîâîðèòñÿ â "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿõ...". Íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîíèìàþ "Ñîîáðàæåíèÿ..." - ýòî ïðåäëîæåíèÿ ïî åãî êîððåêòèðîâêå.

Ðàçóìååòñÿ.

È â ïëàíå íå òàê óæ ìíîãî ëèñòîâ, âñåãî 16. Íàâåðíÿêà, òàì åñòü äîïîëíèòåëüíûå ìàòåðèàëû è ïðèëîæåíèÿ, íî íà íèõ íåò íèêàêèõ ññûëîê, äàæå ñ ïîìåòêîé "íå ïóáëèêóåòñÿ". ß åùå ðàç ïðîñìîòðåë âåñü ñáîðíèê è íå íàøåë âòîðîãî äîêóìåíòà, ñ êîòîðûì òàê ñòðàííî îáîøëèñü áû. À âåäü â ïðåäèñëîâèè ãîâîðèòñÿ: "Îíè ïóáëèêóþòñÿ, êàê ïðàâèëî, â ïîëíîì âèäå (êóïþðû ñäåëàíû òîëüêî â òåõ ñëó÷àÿõ, åñëè â äîêóìåíòå çàòðîíóòû âîïðîñû, íå èìåþùèå îòíîøåíèÿ ê òåìàòèêå ñáîðíèêà)". Óæ ê ýòîìó äîêóìåíòó ýòî íèêàê íå îòíîñèòñÿ.

Ñëîæíî ñêàçàòü. Ïðè÷èí íà òî, ïîâòîðþñü, ìîæåò áûòü ìíîæåñòâî, è óæ âûìàðûâàíèå êàêèõ-òî êóñêîâ ðàäè ñîêðûòèÿ êàêèõ-òî òåìíûõ äåéñòâèé èëè íàìåðåíèé ÑÑÑÐ - íà ïî÷åòíîì ïîñëåäíåì ìåñòå. Ïðîùå áûëî áû âåñü äîêóìåíò òîãäà óíè÷òîæèòü. Èëè çàïå÷àòàòü åãî ãðèôîì "ññ" (ñîâ.ñåêðåòíî) è õðåí òû åãî òîãäà îïóáëèêóåøü. Íó è, â êîíöå-êîíöîâ, âñå ýòè "ñîîáðàæåíèÿ" òàê è îñòàëèñü íà áóìàãå, ïîòîìó ÷òî, íàñêîëüêî ÿ ïîíèìàþ, ðàáîòû íàä íèìè ïðåêðàòèëè êîãäà ñòàëî ïîíÿòíî, ÷òî îñòàíîâèòü íåìöåâ áûñòðî â çàïàäíûõ îáëàñòÿõ íå óäàåòñÿ. Âîéíà ïîøëà íå ïî òîìó ñöåíàðèþ, ê êîòîðîìó ãîòîâèëèñü. À ãîòîâèëèñü æäàòü íàïàäåíèÿ íåìöåâ, à ïîòîì áûñòðî îïðîêèíóòü åãî â ïðèãðàíè÷íûõ ñðàæåíèÿõ è äàëüøå áèòü âðàãà íà åãî æå òåððèòîðèè - åñëè ïî÷èòàåòå ýòè "ñîîáðàæåíèÿ", òî òàì èìåííî ýòè ïëàíû è ïðèñóòñòâóþò. Òàì íåò íè ñëîâà ïðî âíåçàïíîå íàïàäåíèå, ðàâíî êàê íåò íè ñëîâà ïðî íåìöåâ ïîä Ìîñêâîé è Êèåâîì.  îáùåì, ïðåäïîëàãàëè äåéñòâîâàòü îò îáîðîíû.

Ïëàí ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ ýòî - êîãäà, ÷òî è ãäå äîëæíî íàõîäèòüñÿ è ñ êàêèìè öåëÿìè. Åñëè óæ àâòîðû çàäàëèñü öåëüþ äîêàçàòü íåãîòîâíîñòü ÑÑÑÐ ê âîéíå, íàäî áûëî ýòî â ïåðâóþ î÷åðåäü ïîêàçàòü.

Ïëàíû ñîñòàâèòåëåé áûëè íå ÷òî-òî äîêàçàòü, à îïóáëèêîâàòü äîêóìåíòû.

Ãäå òàì ÷òî íåäîðàçâåðíóëè â êàêóþ íàäî ñòîðîíó? Íà÷àëîñü ëè âûïîëíåíèå ýòîãî ïëàíà âîîáùå, åñëè íà÷àëîñü òî êîãäà?

Ãäå-òî íà äâå-òðè íåäåëè ïîçæå íåìöåâ. Ïîýòîìó èõ óäàð è îêàçàëñÿ òàêèì ñòðàøíûì - îíè óäàðèëè ïî íåäîðàçâåðíóòîé àðìèè. Òî åñòü, ïðåêðàñíî ïîíèìàÿ, ÷òî âîéíà íåèçáåæíà è ÷òî ñêîðåå âñåãî îíà ñëó÷èòüñÿ â ýòîì ãîäó, ìû îò÷àÿííî ïûòàëèñü äîãíàòü íåìöåâ ïî âðåìåíè è óñïåòü ðàçâåðíóòü àðìèþ äî èõ óäàðà, îääíîâðåìåííî âñåìè ñèëàìè ïûòàÿñü îòòÿíóòü ñðîê èõ íàïàäåíèÿ. Íå óñïåëè. Âîïðåêè ãîëîñëîâíûì óòâåðæäåíèÿì Ðåçóíà, íàøè ÷àñòè â ïðèãðàíè÷íûõ ðàéîíàõ óñòóïàëè Âåðìàõòó â ÷èñëåííîñòè, íåäîïóñòèìî íèçêèå ïëîòíîñòè íàøèõ âîéñêè â ïðèãðàíè÷üå ïðèâåëè ê ñàìûì ïëà÷åâíûì ðåçóëüòàòàì. Ðåçóí âðåò ïðî "òèòàíè÷åñêèå ìàññû ñîâåòñêèõ âîéñê" ÿêîáû ñîáðàííûå â ëåñàõ ó ñàìîé ãðàíèöû, íî ýòî ãàëèìîå âðàíüå íå ïîäòâåðæäàåòñÿ íè ñîâåòñêèìè, íè íåìåöêèìè äàííûìè.

Ìíîæåñòâî ñîâåðøåííî íåíóæíûõ äîêóìåíòîâ ïðèâåäåíû ïîëíîñòüþ, à îò Ïëàíà ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ, îñòàëèñü ðîæêè äà íîæêè, 3-4 ñòðàíè÷êè. ß óæå ìîë÷ó ïðî êàðòû, íî 16 ëèñòîâ òî ìîæíî áûëî íàïå÷àòàòü èëè õîòÿ áû òàáëèöó ïîëíîñòüþ. Òî åñòü ó íàñ âîîáùå íè÷åãî íå áûëî ðàçâåðíóòî? À ÷òî òîãäà íåìöû ó ãðàíèöû ãðîìèëè?

Ïîãðàíè÷íûå ÷àñòè è ÷àñòè ïðèêðûòèÿ ãîñãðàíèöû. À òàêæå âûäâèãàåìûå äëÿ ðàçâåðòûâàíèÿ ÷àñòè. Òî åñòü êàê ðàç íåäîðàçâåðíóòóþ àðìèþ.

Êîíå÷íî, ñâÿòîå ïðàâî ñîñòàâèòåëåé âûáðàòü òî, ÷òî îíè ñ÷èòàþò íóæíûì. Íî âñå, ÷òî íè äåëàåòñÿ èìååò êàêóþ-òî öåëü, êàêîâà îíà ó ýòîãî ñáîðíèêà? À ýòî âèäíî èç ïðåäèñëîâèÿ.
Ïîñëå åãî ïðî÷òåíèÿ âñå æåëàíèå áëàãîäàðèòü çà ðàñêðûòûå òàéíû ïðîïàäàåò, à õî÷åòñÿ ïðèùåìèòü èì ïàëüöû äâåðüþ, ÷òîáû âîîáùå áîëüøå íå ïèñàëè ïðåäèñëîâèé: "æèçíåííî íåîáõîäèìûå ìåðû íå áûëè ïðèíÿòû, ÷òî ÿâèëîñü çàêîíîìåðíûì ñëåäñòâèåì ñòðàòåãè÷åñêîãî ïðîñ÷åòà È.Ñòàëèíà, ðàññ÷èòûâàâøåãî ïðîäëèòü "ìèðíóþ ïåðåäûøêó" íå ìåíåå, ÷åì äî ñåðåäèíû 1942 ãîäà.  êîíå÷íîì ñ÷åòå âñå ýòî âûëèëîñü â òÿã÷àéøåå ïðåñòóïëåíèå Ñòàëèíà ïåðåä ñîâåòñêèì íàðîäîì."


À âû ïëþíüòå. Ïëþíüòå íà ýòî ïðåäèñëîâèå, ïðî÷òî ÷èòàéòå äîêóìåíòû. À ïîòîì åùå è åùå, äðóãèå ñáîðíèêè, êîòîðûå íàéäåòå.

"Ñòðàøíóþ ïðàâäó î íà÷àëå âîéíû òùàòåëüíî îáåðåãàëè è ïîñëå ñìåðòè Ñòàëèíà, òàê êàê îíà, ýòà ïðàâäà - ïðèãîâîð ðåæèìó, ýòà ïðàâäà î åãî ïðåñòóïëåíèÿõ, çà êîòîðûå áûëî çàïëà÷åíî ìèëëèîíàìè æèçíåé, íåèìîâåðíûìè ñòðàäàíèÿìè íàðîäà." Òàê ïðîñ÷åòû, îøèáêè èëè ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ? È â ÷åì ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ? Ïðàâ Ðåçóí ïðàâ, åñëè áû íå ïðåñòóïëåíèÿ Ñòàëèíà, âñå áûëî áû õîðîøî.
À âîò îêàçûâàåòñÿ â ÷åì ïðåñòóïëåíèå:
"Âîåííîïëåííûõ Ñòàëèí ïðåñëåäîâàë äî êîíöà èõ æèçíè, íàïðàâèâ èõ ïîñëå âîéíû â ñîâåòñêèå êîíöåíòðàöèîííûå ëàãåðÿ. Ýòî ðåøåíèå Ñòàëèíà áûëî âåëè÷àéøèì ïðåñòóïëåíèåì XX ñòîëåòèÿ."
Ñëåäóåò ïîíèìàòü, ÷òî âñåõ äî åäèíîãî ñãíîèëè è íèêòî èç òåõ ëàãåðåé íå âåðíóëñÿ?
À Îñâåíöèì, Ìàéäàíåê, Çàêñåíõàóçåí, Ñàëàñïèëñ, Áàáèé ßð è ò.ï. çàâåäåíèÿ è ìåðîïðèÿòèÿ ýòî ôèãíÿ, â ðåéòèíãå ïðåñòóïëåíèé ÕÕ âåêà âñå ýòî íèæå ×èêàòèëî?
Îíè âñå âìåñòå êóðèëè èëè ãðèáêîâ ïîåëè?
ß ñ÷èòàþ, ÷òî ñîîòâåòñòâåííî âçãëÿäàì è ïîñòàâëåííûì öåëÿì è îòíîøåíèå ó ýòèõ "òîâàðèùåé" ê äîêóìåíòàì. Êîðî÷å, "òåìà ñåêñà" íå ðàñêðûòà. Òàê ÷òî íå çà ÷òî èì "ñïàñèáî", õâàòèò ñ íèõ çàðïëàòû ñ ãîíîðàðîì. À âåäü íàâåðíÿêà ïîëó÷èëè, äà åùå è áëàãîäàðíîñòü îò ÅÁÍà.


Äà íå çàëàìûâàéòå âû ðóêè â òîñêå è íå ñ÷èòàéòå ÷óæèõ ãîíîðàðîâ! Âû ïîäóìàéòå î òîì, ÷òî ýòè ëþäè äîëæíû è ìîãëè íàïèñàòü? È âðåìÿ, êîãäà âûõîäèë ýòîò ñáîðíèê, è êòî ýòî (â òðåòèé ðàç íàïîìíþ) óáûòî÷íîå äåëî ôèíàíñèðîâàë. ß ïîäîçðåâàþ, ÷òî íè÷åãî èíîãî ñîñòàâèòåëè è íå ìîãëè íàïèñàòü. Ñáîðíèê âûøåë íà âîëíå äåðüìîêðàòè÷åñêîãî áåñíîâàíèÿ, êîãäà ìîäíî áûëî îõàèâàòü âñå ñîâåòñêîå è íåìîäíî áûëî ýòî çàùèùàòü èëè õîòÿ áû ÷åñòíî ðàçáèðàòüñÿ. Ïîýòîìó, êàê ÿ è ñêàçàë, ÿ íå ñ÷èòàþ ýòîò ñáîðíèê èäåàëüíûì, ó ìåíÿ òîæå åñòü ñâîè ïðåòåíçèè ê åãî ñîñòàâèòåëÿì, íî ÿ ïðåêðàñíî èõ ïîíèìàþ è äåëàþ èì áîëüøóþ ñêèäêó.

P.S. Çà÷èòàë îò íå÷åãî äåëàòü "Íåïðàâäà Âèêòîðà Ñóâîðîâà" è "Êîãäà íà÷àëàñü è çàêîí÷èëàñü 2 ìèðîâàÿ âîéíà" - ìåñòàìè õîõîòàë äî êîëèêîâ, òàêîé æå áðåä êàê â ýòîì ïðåäèñëîâèè...

Âòîðóþ êíèæêó íå ÷èòàë è äàæå íå âèäåë, à ïåðâóþ ÷èòàë. ×åñòíî ãîâîðÿ, íå âïå÷àòëèëî. Äåëüíûõ ñòàòåé òàì âñåãî äâå: Áàèðà Èðèí÷ååâà è Ìèõàèëà Ñâèðèíà. Âñå îñòàëüíîå - ýòî âîäà è ìàëîâðàçóìèòåëüíîå áëåÿíèå. Áàèð âñ¸ íàïèñàë ïî äåëó è î÷åíü ãðàìîòíî, êàê è ñòàòüÿ Ñâèðèíà (ïðàâäà ýòà ñòàòüÿ áûëà íàïèñàíà ëåò 10 íàçàä è ìíå äàâíî èçâåñòíà). À âñå îñòàëüíîå - êàêàÿ-òî çëîáíî-ñàðêàñòè÷åñêàÿ áåëèáåðäà. Ãîðàçäî óäà÷íåå ïîëó÷èëîñü ó Àëåêñåÿ Èñàåâà â åãî êíèæêå "Àíòèñóâîðîâ: áîëüøàÿ ëîæü ìàëåíüêîãî ÷åëîâå÷êà".
#324
åâãåíèé
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 14 2009 23:26:14
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé.
Õîòåëîñü áû óñëûøàòü Âàøå ìíåíèå ïî ïîâîäó êíèãè Â.Ñóâîðîâà ''Î÷èùåíèå''.
Õîòÿ áû âêðàòöå,îñíîâíûå òåçèñû.
#396

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 15 2009 13:05:44
åâãåíèé ïèñàë(à):
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé.
Õîòåëîñü áû óñëûøàòü Âàøå ìíåíèå ïî ïîâîäó êíèãè Â.Ñóâîðîâà ''Î÷èùåíèå''.
Õîòÿ áû âêðàòöå,îñíîâíûå òåçèñû.


Íå ÷èòàë è íå ïðåäïîëàãàþ. Äëÿ ìåíÿ Ðåçóí (Ñóâîðîâ) êàê èñòîðèê íå ñóùåñòâóåò.
#397
åâãåíèé
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 15 2009 19:01:06
Óâàæàåìûé Âàëåðèé!
ß ïåðåôðàçèðóþ âîïðîñ.Âàøå ìíåíèå î òàê íàçûâàåìîì Áîëüøîì Òåððîðå.Ðåàëüíî ëè îí îñëàáèë ÐÊÊÀ ïåðåä âîéíîé?
#398

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 15 2009 19:24:57
Ñàìè-òî êàê äóìàåòå? Åñëè Âû ïåðåñòðåëÿåòå âñþ ãîëîâêó âàøåãî ãåíåðàëèòåòà íåçàäîëãî äî âîéíû, à íà èõ ìåñòî íàáåðåòå øïàíó áåç äîëæíîãî îáðàçîâàíèÿ è îïûòà? Òîëüêî ñëàáîóìíûé ìîæåò ãîâîðèòü, ÷òî, ìîë, äàâàéòå âñåõ ñòàðûõ ïåðåñòðåëÿåì, ÷òîáû íå ìåøàëè êàðüåðíîìó ðîñòó ìîëîäûì (ýòî ãîâîðèëîñü ðåçóíîì ãäå-òî â òðèëîãèè "Ëåäîêîë-Äåíü Ì-Ïîñëåäíÿÿ ðåñïóáëèêà" )
#399
Dust
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 21 2009 19:06:56
Âñå àðãóìåíòû ïðîòèâ Ðåçóíà â ñòèëå øèðèíà/ãëóáèíà/òîëùèíà íåñîñòîÿòåëüíû òàêæå, êàê è àðãóìåíòû ñàìîãî Ðåçóíà. Îí ïðîñòî âðàã ðàáîòàþùèé ïî çàêàçó ëþäåé ïðîäåðæàâøèõ Ð. Ãåññà 50 ëåò â êðåïîñòè è, ñêîðåå âñåãî â èòîãå, óáèâøèõ åãî. Âñå åãî êíèãè ýòî ïîïûòêà âûñòðîèòü âåðñèþ ÏÎ×ÅÌÓ Ãåðìàíèÿ íàïàëà íà ÑÑÑÐ íå çàòðàãèâàþùóþ ýòèõ ãîñïîä. Ýòî ñàìàÿ ãëàâíàÿ òàéíà âòîðîé ìèðîâîé. Ïî÷åìó ÷åëîâåê, íàâåðíÿêà çíàþùèé è íåîäíîêðàòíî çàÿâëÿþùèé î ïëà÷åâíûõ ïîñëåäñòâèÿõ âîéíû íà äâà ôðîíòà, ñàì îòêðûâàåò åãî íàïàäåíèåì íà ñòðàíó åãî êîðìÿùóþ. ß ïîäîçðåâàþ, ÷òî ïðàâäó î ïåðåãîâîðàõ Ãåññà ñ Áðèòàíèåé ìû óçíàåì ìíîãî ïîçæå, ÷åì ñåêðåò ñîòâîðåíèÿ âñåëåííûõ. Âîò ýòî òàéíà òàê òàéíà. Ïðàâäà Ðåçóíÿòàì ýòîãî íå îáúÿñíèòü. Îíè ïðîñòî ñåêòà êàêàÿ-òî. Ðåçóí-ñåíðþê¸ èëè Àäâåíòèñòû èþíÿ 22 äíÿ. Õîòÿ, íàäî îòìåòèòü, ñàìàÿ áóðíàÿ ïîëåìèêà íà ýòîì ñàéòå èìåííî ïî Ðåçóíó.

P.S. V_P, à êíèãè À. Èñàåâà Âû íå ðåêîìåíäóåòå? èëè Ì. Êîëîìèéöà?
#405

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Feb 22 2009 20:36:35
Dust ïèñàë(à):
Âñå àðãóìåíòû ïðîòèâ Ðåçóíà â ñòèëå øèðèíà/ãëóáèíà/òîëùèíà íåñîñòîÿòåëüíû òàêæå, êàê è àðãóìåíòû ñàìîãî Ðåçóíà.

Êîãäà ÿ ïèñàë ñòàòüþ, ìîåé çàäà÷åé áûëî ïîêàçàòü êàê èìåííî îí âðåò. Ïîýòîìó ïðèõîäèëîñü èñïîëüçîâàòü òå æå àðãóìåíòû.

P.S. V_P, à êíèãè À. Èñàåâà Âû íå ðåêîìåíäóåòå? èëè Ì. Êîëîìèéöà?

Ïî÷åìó æå! È Èñàåâà, è Êîëîìèéöà, è Ñâèðèíà, è Áàðÿòèíñêîãî.
#419
bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Mar 06 2009 18:52:21
Äà äåéñòâèòåëüíî âñå ýòî ïîõîæå íà ñåêòó. Òîëüêî íå íà îäíó, à íà äâå. Êòî êàêèì ìèðîâîççðåíèåì âîîðóæåí (ìàðêñèñòñêî-ëåíèíñêèì, õðèñòèàíñêèì èëè åùå êàêèì), òîò òàê è âîñïðèíèìàåò îäíè è òå æå ÿâëåíèÿ, ñîáûòèÿ è äîêóìåíòû. Íà ìîé âçãëÿä íàäî îòíîñèòüñÿ êðèòè÷åñêè êî âñåìó, äàæå ê äîêóìåíòàì.
Ëè÷íî ÿ ñòàðàþñü ÷èòàòü ìíåíèÿ ñ îáåèõ ñòîðîí, ïîòîìó ÷òî çåðíà èñòèíû ìîæíî íàéòè ãäå óãîäíî.
×òî âû äóìàåòå ïî ïîâîäó âîò òàêèõ ìíåíèé î òâîð÷åñòâå À.Èñàåâà? http://solonin.org/full.php?show=content&id=44&type=otz http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2006-09-01/5_iskusstvo.html
Îïÿòü æå, ëè÷íî ìîå ìíåíèå, èç åãî êíèã áîëüøå âñåãî çàïîìèíàþòñÿ áåñêîíå÷íûå áåññìûñëåííûå ïåðå÷èñëåíèÿ ñîñòàâà íåìåöêèõ ÷àñòåé, ñïàñèáî õîòü ïîèìåííûå ñïèñêè íå ïðèâîäèò, à ñ ñóòüþ êàê-òî íå î÷åíü.
#440

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Mar 06 2009 19:31:22
Êîíå÷íî, âåñü ìèð ìîæíî íàçâàòü ñåêòîé, íî ïî÷åìó-òî íå õî÷åòñÿ.
Êíèãó Ñîëîíèíà ÿ ÷èòàë íåñêîëüêî ëåò íàçàä, íî ãäå-òî ê ñåðåäèíå áðîñèë: ìíå ñòàëî æàëü òðàòèòü íà ýòó ìàêóëàòóðó ñâîå âðåìÿ. ×òî æå êàñàåòñÿ îòâåòà Ñîëîíèíà íà êðèòèêó Èñàåâà, òî ñêàæó ñðàçó, ÷òî ñòàòüþ Èñàåâà íå ÷èòàë. Îòâåò Ñîëîíèíà ïî ýòîé ïðè÷èíå ïðîáåæàë íå îñîáî âíèìàòåëüíî, îäíàêî äàæå ïðè òàêîì áåãëîì âçãëÿäå íå óñêîëüçíóëè ïîñòîÿííûå èäèîòñêèå àëëåãîðèè ïðî "êðÿêàþùóþ óòêó", "êîìè÷íóþ ãîðäîñòü", àïïåëÿöèÿ ê Ïóøêèíó è äàæå ê íåêèì "çàâåòàì Øòèðëèöà". Íó ýòî òàê, çàìåòêè íà ïîëÿõ.
Åñëè êîïíóòü, òî â ãëàçà áðîñàåòñÿ ïîëíûé áðåä. Íàâñêèäêó:
"È âñåãî 3 (òðè) ÁÐ-17. Òàê ÷òî íè î êàêîì èñïîëüçîâàíèè ýòèõ ÷óäîâèùíûõ ìîíñòðîâ (âåñ â áîåâîì ïîëîæåíèè 44 òîííû) äëÿ áîðüáû ñ òàíêàìè íå ìîãëî áûòü è ðå÷è."
Ïîìíèòñÿ, îáðàáàòûâàë âîñïîìèíàíèÿ îäíîãî äåäà, êîòîðûé ðàññêàçûâàë êàê â íà÷àëå âîéíû îíè ðàñõðåíà÷èëè íåìåöêèå òàíêè êàê ðàç è òàêèõ âîò îðóäèé. Æåëàþùèå ìîãóò ïðî÷èòàòü îá ýòîì òóò, à äëÿ ëåíèâûõ ïðèâåäó öèòàòó:
"Ïåðâûé áîé ïðîèçîøåë äîâîëüíî ñêîðî ïîñëå íà÷àëà âîéíû. Ìû âûñòóïèëè íà îïðåäåëåííûå êîìàíäîâàíèåì ïîçèöèè è, íàñïåõ ðàñïîëîæèâ îðóäèÿ, óâèäåëè íåìåöêóþ êîëîííó òàíêîâ è ïåõîòû, øåäøèõ â ïîõîäíîì ïîðÿäêå. Îðóäèÿ áèëè ïðàêòè÷åñêè ïðÿìîé íàâîäêîé è íåìöàì ïðèøëîñü íåñëàäêî. 203-ìì ãàóáèöà - î÷åíü ãðîçíîå îðóæèå! Áàøíè îò òàíêîâ ñðûâàëî è ïîäáðàñûâàëî íàä çåìëåé, òàêæå â ðàçðûâàõ ñíàðÿäîâ ìåëüêàëà íåìåöêàÿ ïåõîòà, èíîãäà áûëî õîðîøî âèäíî, êàê ÷åëîâåê ïîäëåòàåò íà íåñêîëüêî äåñÿòêîâ ìåòðîâ.  îáùåì, ïåðâûé áîé áûë â íàøó ïîëüçó... Ñêàçàëàñü âûó÷êà êàäðîâîé ñëóæáû."
Òàê êîìó âåðèòü? Ñîëîíèíó èëè âåòåðàíó? Ëè÷íî ÿ âåðþ âåòåðàíó.

Íó, èëè âîò òàêîå:
"Ãðàäóñ âîçìóùåíèÿ ã-íà Èñàåâà íàðàñòàåò ñ êàæäîé ôðàçîé: "Ñîãëàñíî Ì.Ñîëîíèíó, ïîòåðè òàíêîâ Ò-28 10-é òàíêîâîé äèâèçèè â áîþ ðàâíû íóëþ. Ñîãëàñíî îò÷åòó êîìàíäèðà äèâèçèè â áîþ áûëî ïîòåðÿíî 4 Ò-28-õ. Èìååò ìåñòî ïåðåäåðãèâàíèå ôàêòîâ è âûäóìêè äàæå â ñëó÷àå ðàáîòû ñ ïåðâè÷íûìè äîêóìåíòàìè. Ýòî ïîêàçûâàåò íåäîáðîñîâåñòíîñòü àâòîðà è íàñòîé÷èâîå ñòðåìëåíèå âûäàòü æåëàåìîå çà äåéñòâèòåëüíîå". Êàê ñêàçàíî! Ñðåçàë! Ñ êàêèì âîñòîðæåííûì êðÿêàíüåì ëåòàëà (è ëåòàåò ïî ñåé äåíü) ýòà "óòêà" ïî áåçáðåæíûì ïðîñòîðàì Èíòåðíåò-ôîðóìîâ. À ÷òî íà ñàìîì äåëå? Íà÷íåì ñ òîãî, ÷òî "ñîãëàñíî îò÷åòó êîìàíäèðà" íà âîîðóæåíèè 10-é òàíêîâîé äèâèçèè 15-ãî ìåõêîðïóñà áûëî íå 4, à íåñêîëüêî áîëüøå òàíêîâ Ò-28. Êîíêðåòíî - 51. Ñåìü òàíêîâ ýòîãî òèïà îêàçàëèñü íåèñïðàâíûìè, è â ïîõîä âûñòóïèëî 44 òàíêà Ò-28. Ê èñõîäó äíÿ 26 èþíÿ (ñîãëàñíî îò÷åòà è.î. êîìàíäèðà 15-ãî ìåõêîðïóñà) â 10-é òàíêîâîé äèâèçèè â ñòðîþ îñòàëîñü 4 (÷åòûðå) òàíêà Ò-28. Ãäå æå îñòàëüíûå 40? "
Òàê è õî÷åòñÿ ñïðîñèòü: ìóùùèíà, âû äåáèë? Èñàåâ ãîâîðèò î 4-õ ïîòåðÿíûõ òàíêàõ. À âû - î ÿêîáû 4-õ îñòàâøèõñÿ.
 îáùåì, æåëàíèÿ êîïàòü äàëüøå ýòîò áàãîâíèê íåò íèêàêîãî æåëàíèÿ.
Òî, ÷òî ó Èñàåâà åñòü îøèáêè - à ó êîãî èõ íåò? Âîïðîñ â òîì, êàêîâ ïðîöåíò. Ó Ñîëîíèíà îí ÿâíî çàøêàëèë. È äàæå òåïåðü, â ñâîåé íåóêëþæåé ïîïûòêå îïðàâäàòüñÿ îò êðèòèêè Èñàåâà íè÷åãî íå èçìåíèëîñü, è òàì, ãäå íå÷åãî ñòàçàòü, ó íåãî íà÷èíàþò ëåòàòü âñÿêèå "êðÿêàþùèå óòêè", äà àíåêäîòèêè ïðî Øòèðëèöà.
#441
bezdelnick
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Mar 12 2009 09:41:10
Âîò ðåöåíçèÿ Èñàåâà: http://solonin.org/full.php?show=content&id=33&type=otz

Íàñ÷åò ñòðåëüáû èç ãàóáèö 203-ìì èç çàñàäû ïî òàíêàì. Åäèíè÷íûé ñëó÷àé íå ãîâîðèò î òîì, ÷òî ýòî áûëî ñèñòåìîé. " îáùåì, ïåðâûé áîé áûë â íàøó ïîëüçó..." Âòîðîé âèäèìî îêàçàëñÿ è ïîñëåäíèì äëÿ
÷óäî-ãàóáèö. Êñòàòè ïî ïåõîòå òî èç íèõ åùå ïðèêîëüíåé ïàëèòü, âîí êàê íåìöû ïî íåáó ëåòàþò.
Íàâåðíÿêà åñòü âîñïîìèíàíèÿ, êàê íåìåöêèì òàíêèñòàì ðóáèëè ãîëîâû ñàïåðíûìè ëîïàòêàìè, ïðåäâàðèòåëüíî çàòêíóâ ñòâîë ïóøêè êàðòîøêîé.

Ñîëîíèí:"Ýòî 50-òîííîå ñòàëüíîå ÷óäîâèùå ìîãëî óòþæèòü áîåâûå ïîðÿäêè íåìåöêîé ïåõîòû ïðàêòè÷åñêè áåñïðåïÿòñòâåííî, êàê íà ó÷åáíîì ïîëèãîíå" (Ñ.79-80)."

Êîììåíòàðèé Èñàåâà: "Íè î êàêîé åçäå "êàê íà ïîëèãîíå" íå ìîãëî áûòü è ðå÷è. Òàêèå ñëó÷àè íîñèëè ÷àñòíûé õàðàêòåð."
Ïðàâäà?

À êàê æå äîêëàä êîìàíäèðà 10-é òàíêîâîé äèâèçèè (http://ww2doc.50megs.com/Issue33/Issue33_75.html)
:"...íåñìîòðÿ íà òî, ÷òî ñíàðÿäû ïðîòèâíèêà çàêëèíèëè áàøíþ òàíêà, ïðîäîëæàë âåñòè áîé, äàâÿ ãóñåíèöàìè ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûå îðóäèÿ è ïåõîòó ïðîòèâíèêà, è èç áîÿ âûøåë ïîñëåäíèé. Ýêèïàæ òàíêà
ëåéòåíàíòà Æèáèíà ïîä ðóêîâîäñòâîì ñòàðøåãî ëåéòåíàíòà Êîæåìÿ÷êî â òå÷åíèå ÒÐÅÕ äíåé ïî ñâîåé èíèöèàòèâå äðàëñÿ ñ òàíêàìè ïðîòèâíèêà. Ïîëó÷èâ áîëüøîå êîëè÷åñòâî ïðÿìûõ ïîïàäàíèé ñíàðÿäîâ è èìåÿ äâå ñêâîçíûå ïðîáîèíû, ýêèïàæ íå âûâåë òàíê èç áîÿ, à ïðîäîëæàë âåñòè áîðüáó äî òåõ ïîð, ïîêà íå ïîëó÷èë ïðÿìîå ïðèêàçàíèå êîìàíäèðà äèâèçèè îòîéòè è îòïðàâèòü òàíê â ðåìîíò íà çàâîä.
...Ïðè ïîÿâëåíèè íàøèõ òàíêîâ, îñîáåííî «Ê», ïåõîòà áåæèò, äà è òàíêè [ïðîòèâíèêà] áîÿ íå ïðèíèìàþò..."

È ñóäÿ ïî äîêëàäó íàäàâèëè íåìàëî: óíè÷òîæåíî òàíêîâ – 128,ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ îðóäèé – 198, ïóøåê – 117, ñàìîëåòîâ – 20, ãðóçîâûõ ìàøèí – 81, ìèíîìåòîâ – 26 è ïåõîòû – äî 2.5 òûñÿ÷ ÷åëîâåê.

Êîìó âåðèòü? Èñàåâó èëè äîêëàäó êîìàíäèðà äèâèçèè? Ëè÷íî ÿ âåðþ êîìàíäèðó. Êðàñíûé êîìàíäèð íèêîãäà íå âðåò.

Õîòÿ: "Äèâèçèÿ èñïîëüçîâàëàñü äëÿ íàñòóïëåíèÿ, êàê ïðàâèëî, íà íàïðàâëåíèÿõ ñèëüíî óêðåïëåííûõ ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûõ ðàéîíîâ ñ íàëè÷èåì ìîùíîé àðòèëëåðèè ó ïðîòèâíèêà."
È îòêóäà èì âçÿòüñÿ, ñèëüíî óêðåïëåííûì ïðîòèâîòàíêîâûì ðàéîíàì?
Íàâåðíîå íåìöû èõ íà êîëåñèêàõ ïðèêàòèëè.

Èñàåâ: "Âîîáùå ïðîñòðàííûå ðàññóæäåíèÿ î âûñîêèõ íåáîåâûõ ïîòåðÿõ ñîâåòñêèõ ìåõàíèçèðîâàííûõ êîðïóñîâ âûäàþò óçêèé êðóãîçîð Ì.Ñîëîíèíà." Äàëüøå ïðî òî, ÷òî ó íåìöåâ òîæå òàêèå áûâàëè â 43-ì.

Áåðåì â ðóêè êàëüêóëÿòîð. Ïðî íóëåâûå ïîòåðè Ò-28 ó Ñîëîíèíà. Â äîêëàäå,òàì ãäå èäåò îïèñàíèå
áîåâûõ äåéñòâèé, ÍÅÒ íè ñëîâà î áîåâûõ ïîòåðÿõ Ò-28.  òàáëèöå äà,åñòü ïîòåðÿííûå â áîþ 4 øò. Îäíàêî ýòî èç 44 èìåâøèõñÿ, òî÷íåå 51,ò.ê. 7 áûëè áðîøåíû åùå â ïàðêå. Èòîãî ìåíüøå 8% ïîòåðÿíî â áîþ.
Ýòî íå âûñîêèå íåáîåâûå ïîòåðè?

Äàëåå èç òàáëèöû â òîì æå äîêëàäå:
"Ðàçáèòî è ñãîðåëî íà ïîëå áîÿ - 108, âñåãî ïîòåðÿíî 307."
Ýòî 37% â áîþ, îñòàëüíûå "ïîòåðÿëèñü". Íå ñ÷èòàÿ áðîøåííûõ â ïàðêå.
Ïðàâäà êîìàíäèð "÷åñòíî" äîáàâëÿåò áîåâûå ïîòåðè äî 50%:
"Âûøëî èç ñòðîÿ ïðè âûïîëíåíèè áîåâîé çàäà÷è è îñòàëîñü íà òåððèòîðèè, çàíÿòîé ïðîòèâíèêîì - 13 (à íå âñå ëè ðàâíî ãäå îíè ñëîìàëèñü), íå âåðíóëîñü ñ ýêèïàæàìè ñ ïîëÿ áîÿ ïîñëå àòàêè -
27(÷òî ñ íèìè ñëó÷èëîñü íèêòî íå çíàåò, ìîæåò äîåõàëè äî áëèæàéøåãî ëåñà è ðàçáåæàëèñü, îäíàêî çàïèñûâàåì â áîåâûå ïîòåðè), ñãîðåëî â ðåçóëüòàòå áîìáàðäèðîâîê - 5(íó âîò ýòî ïîõîæå íà ïðàâäó: "Âî âñåõ ñëó÷àÿõ íàøèõ òàíêîâûõ àòàê âûçûâàëàñü àâèàöèÿ, êîòîðàÿ áîìáèëà íàøè áîåâûå ïîðÿäêè íà ïîäõîäàõ ê ïåðåäíåìó êðàþ. Ýôôåêòèâíîñòü áîìáåæåê áîåâûõ ïîðÿäêîâ íåçíà÷èòåëüíàÿ."

Ìîæåò ñîâåòñêèå òàíêè áûëè ïîëíîå áàðàõëî, êîòîðîå ëîìàëîñü îò äóíîâåíèÿ âåòðà? Äà âðîäå íåò:
" îñíîâíîì òàíêè «Ê» è «Ò-34» èìåþò âûñîêèå áîåâûå êà÷åñòâà: êðåïêóþ áðîíþ è õîðîøåå îðóæèå. Íà ïîëå áîÿ òàíêè «Ê» ïðèâîäèëè â ñìÿòåíèå òàíêè ïðîòèâíèêà è âî âñåõ ñëó÷àÿõ åãî òàíêè îòñòóïàëè.Áîéöû è êîìàíäèðû äèâèçèè î íàøèõ òàíêàõ ãîâîðÿò, êàê îá î÷åíü íàäåæíûõ ìàøèíàõ."
Ïðàâäà áûëè è íåäîñòàòêè.

Åñëè Ñîëîíèí ñòðàííî ðàññóæäàåò, òî Èñàåâ íå óìååò ñ÷èòàòü?

Ëè÷íûé âîïðîñ: êîãäà Âû ó÷àñòâîâàëè â ðåàëüíûõ áîåâûõ äåéñòâèÿõ òàêîå ïîëîæåíèå òîæå áûëî íîðìîé? Êîãäà îò 10% äî 40% ìàøèí - ýòî ïîòåðè â áîþ, à îñòàëüíûå "ïîòåðÿëèñÿ" ãäå-òî.
Äàæå ñ ó÷åòîì òîãî, ÷òî âîéíû áûâàþò ðàçíûå, âåðèòñÿ ñ òðóäîì.

Ñîëîíèí: ".íå ñîîòâåòñòâóåò ýëåìåíòàðíûì íîðìàì ïðèëè÷èÿ ñïîñîá öèòèðîâàíèÿ, èñïîëüçóåìûé Èñàåâûì. Ñíà÷àëà îí ðàñ÷ëåíÿåò åäèíûé ñìûñëîâîé îáîðîò ("ýðà êàâàëåðèè â Êðàñíîé Àðìèè çàêîí÷èëàñü. Õîòÿ è íå âäðóã è íå ñðàçó"; çàòåì, ïîëüçóÿñü òåì, ÷òî ÷èòàòåëü "ðåöåíçèè" îáñóæäàåìóþ êíèãó íå ÷èòàë, îòáðàñûâàåò âòîðóþ è íåîòúåìëåìóþ ÷àñòü ôðàçû ("íå âäðóã, è íå ñðàçó". È ýòî îòíþäü íå åäèíñòâåííûé ñëó÷àé ïðåäíàìåðåííîãî èñêàæåíèÿ ñìûñëà òåêñòà îáñóæäàåìîé êíèãè."
Ñîâåðøåííî âåðíî, Èñàåâ ïðîñòî "ïåðåäåðãèâàåò" öèòàòû èç êíèãè Ñîëîíèíà ïî÷èùå, ÷åì íåíàâèñòíûé åìó Ðåçóí, ïîëüçóÿñü òåì, ÷òî íåëüçÿ ïðîâåðèòü ñîîòâåòñòâèå åãî öèòàò ñ ïåðâîèñòî÷íèêîì.
Ìîæíî ëè ýòî ñ÷èòàòü îøèáêîé?

Íó è âîò åùå ïðî Èñàåâà: http://nvo.ng.ru/history/2006-09-01/5_iskusstvo.html

Òàê ÷òî? Ìîæíî ëè íà îñíîâàíèè òîãî, ÷òî Èñàåâ íå âëàäååò, òî÷íåå ñêàçàòü íå âëàäåë íà ìîìåíò íàïèñàíèÿ óêàçàííîé ñòàòüè äàæå ýëåìåíòàðíîé òåðìèíîëîãèåé, ñ÷èòàòü âñå èëè ÷àñòü åãî êíèã áðåäîì, çàïèñêàìè äèëåòàíòà? Êàê òîëüêî äîõîäèì äî ìåñòà, ãäå âñòðå÷àåòñÿ êðèâîé òåðìèí èëè îøèáêà, äàëüøå íå ÷èòàåì - áðîñàåì â ïå÷êó. Â÷åðà íå çíàë è íå âëàäåë, à ñåãîäíÿ è â äðóãîé êíèãå óæå èñïðàâèëñÿ. Ó ëþáîãî åñòü óñïåõè è ïðîâàëû.
Äàâàéòå ïðèìåíÿòü îäèíàêîâûå ïîäõîäû êî âñåì àâòîðàì.
#451

V_P
RE: Íåñîñòîÿâøèéñÿ èñòîðèê
Mar 12 2009 12:26:51
Óâàæàåìûé Áåçäåëüíèê. ß äóìàþ, ÷òî âñå âàøè ïðåòåíçèè íàäî àäðåñîâàòü èìåííî Èñàåâó, à íå ìíå. Òåì áîëåå, ÷òî íàéòè Èñàåâà â èíòåðíåòå íå ñîñòàâëÿåò òðóäà. Ìíå æå äëÿ òîãî, ÷òîáû âàì íîðìàëüíî îïïîíèðîâàòü íàäî âíîâü âîçâðàùàòüñÿ ê êíèãå Ñîëîíèíà, ÷èòàòü åå âñþ, ïîòîì ÷èòàòü êðèòèêó Èñàåâà è ïîòîì îòâåò Ñîëîíèíà. Çàíèìàòüñÿ ýòèì ðàäè òîãî, ÷òîáû âàñ ïåðåñïîðèòü (èëè íàîáîðîò, ñîãëàñèòüñÿ) ó ìåíÿ íåò íèêàêîãî æåëàíèÿ. Ñâîå ìíåíèå î òðóäàõ Ñîëîíèíà ÿ ñîñòàâèë, åñëè ó íåãî íîâûå ðàáîòû ñòàëè ëó÷øå ïðåäûäóùèõ, òî ôëàã åìó â ðóêè.
×òî æå êàñàåòñÿ âàøåãî âîïðîñà êîìó âåðèòü - öèôðàì â áîåâîì äîíåñåíèè èëè ïîçäíèì èñòîðè÷åñêèì èññëåäîâàíèÿì, òî ÿ âûáåðó ïîñëåäíåå. Ïîòîìó ÷òî åñëè ñëîæèòü âñå òàíêè (èëè ñàìîëåòû èëè ïóøêè èëè ñîëäàò), êîòîðûå "íàêîëîòèëè" íàøè äîáëåñòíûå êîìàíäèðû â ñâîèõ áîåâûõ äîíåñåíèÿõ, òî çà ãîäû âîéíû ìû ðàç ïÿòü íàâåðíî óíè÷òîæèëè âñå ãåðìàíñêèå ñèëû
#453


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ðîññèéñêèé èñòîðèê Ìàðê Ñîëîíèí - íîâûé âçãëÿä íà ñîáûòèÿ âåëèêîé îòå÷åñòâåííîé âîéíû